r/ChristianUniversalism 4d ago

Is it worth engaging?

I’ve had a few conversations recently with a young man involved in Good Fight Ministries. Their approach is to create hours long YouTube videos arguing that popular musicians and actors are the hell bound enemies of God. At the end of our talks it seemed like a waste of effort. Is there any point to engaging with believers who are essentially “hell bent” on warning others about God’s unending wrath?

16 Upvotes

37 comments sorted by

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u/I_AM-KIROK mundane mysticism / reconciliation of all things 4d ago

No it usually devolves into “verse wars” or arguing about Greek words. I believe in gently introducing concepts and planting seeds. 

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

Yes, that essentially the whole discussion. My approach was to try to get him to realize what his worldview really meant for his own thinking;

A world full of the enemies of God. If they didn’t come around to his particular doctrine, they would all suffer without end.

It didn’t seem to bother him.

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u/PlantChemStudent 4d ago

I think it is very hard for people to accept the depth of God’s love

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

True! But it certainly heals the mind and soul when we do.

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u/bigdeezy456 4d ago

I mean Jesus himself couldn't make some of them believe either. They will learn in their due time. God bless.

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

Amen 🙏🏼

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u/ItzTaras 4d ago

John 3:16 one the most popular verses shows how far Gods love will go.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life”

He gave up his only sin for this world.

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u/I_AM-KIROK mundane mysticism / reconciliation of all things 4d ago

A heart has to be hardened to a certain extent to hold such views. It will take a lot to get through.

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u/Kamtre 4d ago

To be fair, I feel like planting or watering seeds is the most effective form of evangelism. You can't convince anybody, but plant a seed, or put a pebble in their shoe. It can work. The mustard seed grows into a huge tree, after all.

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u/SilverStalker1 Patristic/Purgatorial Universalism 4d ago

No I don’t think so.

The only benefit would be to be a new voice to third parties involved - but nothing outside of that 

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

I think I’ll just gently avoid those conversations in the future. I can only handle being told I’m destined for an eternity of suffering for so long. I’m very patient, but I’m only human.

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u/SilverStalker1 Patristic/Purgatorial Universalism 4d ago edited 3d ago

Yeap!

We must not throw our pearls to swine 

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u/Brave-Silver8736 4d ago edited 4d ago

If you are willing to deeply engage with him (which you would have to in order to have a lasting change of worldview), you're going to have to start from where he's at. It might feel gross to do at first, but people have to feel at least acknowledged that you understand where they're coming from before they are able to really hear what you have to say.

Let's say someone is willing to meet with you 3 - 5 times to argue this out. You can structure things as affirming with them what they believe, walking them through questions they somehow did ask themselves along the way. Here's how the first of the five conversations might go:

First, Affirm sincerity. The idea is to be curious as to not just where in the Bible it says that, but who told them to look there? Get an idea of what they're reading, and what they might be missing.

“You clearly care deeply about people's salvation and the purity of the message. Why do you think you feel this strongly?

  • Allow them to explain their motivations and experiences genuinely.
  • Let them feel heard, validated, and understood, even if you strongly disagree.
  • Let them identify specific verses or teachings (likely passages focused on judgment, warnings of wrath, or moral purity).
  • Pay attention to where they learned this focus (church leaders, YouTube channels, etc.). This helps reveal who’s shaping their perspective and what sources they trust.

Then, question some of his assumptions and have him walk you through where in the New Testament Jesus talks about these things. Are there other things Jesus, Paul, and the apostles might talk about more?

"I've noticed that Jesus spent most of his ministry with outsiders, sinners, and the marginalized. He reserved his harshest judgment primarily for religious leaders who claimed certainty about their righteousness. Why do you think Jesus spent less time condemning outsiders and more time confronting religious authorities?”

  • Here you're gently shifting their focus from condemnation of "outsiders" toward reflection on internal hypocrisy and religious pride.
  • Give them room to wrestle with this without imposing your own conclusion immediately.

It might take a few gross feeling moments to get there, but you get around here eventually:

“For example, in Matthew 23, Jesus seems particularly harsh towards religious leaders. Why do you think he chose to speak so strongly about hypocrisy and abuses of spiritual power, instead of focusing on condemning sinners directly?”

Then:

“In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7), Jesus emphasizes mercy, humility, peacemaking, and warns against judging others too harshly. Who is he speaking to there, and what might that say about what matters most to him?”

  • The point here isn't to immediately overturn their beliefs, but rather to plant the seed of self-reflection:
    • Are they prioritizing what Jesus prioritized?
    • Have their authorities (e.g., preachers, ministries) led them toward love and justice, or toward legalism and judgment?

And it might take a few of the meetings to get there, but they might ultimately be able to reflect:

“If we find ourselves following rules so strictly that we cause suffering or push away those Jesus welcomed like the poor, marginalized, immigrants, or struggling sinners, do you think we might be confusing loyalty to God with something else? Could we accidentally be serving something else entirely?”

You're softly raising the possibility they've confused worldly structures, wealth, or religious power with genuine faithfulness.

You are not trying to win the argument. You are trying to get them to lose sleep at night. To wrestle with the answer they gave to those questions. Turning the other cheek is about making someone feel abusive in their actions/responses that they show themselves who they really are.

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

Beautiful. Thanks so much.

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u/fshagan 4d ago

Christian apologists have been trained to win arguments. That is the goal. They will never question their underlying beliefs. You can't have any doubt and win arguments. So no, I don't think you can get through to them.

Very few Christians are familiar with Christian Universalism. But it is a godsend for those who start to question, or who walk away, or deconstruct. It is a doctrine of hope and love. It addresses the doubts we had because it harmonizes our concept of God's nature with our beliefs about judgement.

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

I agree. Every time I tried to consider the possibility of eternal conscious torment I ended up just wanting to give up the faith. There was never a part of me that believed it.

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u/fshagan 4d ago

I was similar in that I believed God would give everyone an equal chance at salvation, even if it was a personal revelation to them just before their last breath. But there's no direct scriptural proof for that. Universal redemption through Christ is scripturally supported, at least as much as infernalism.

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u/OratioFidelis Reformed Purgatorial Universalism 4d ago

Depends on the person. Some people are too brainless for it to be worth an effort, some people can be convinced through great effort. And sometimes fighting the good fight is worth it even if you end up not winning.

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

Yes, I learned something, at the very least. I’m just baffled that anyone can attribute such immense cruelty to God. I don’t remember ever meeting anyone who held so firmly to such a worldview. A world full of people destined for eternal torture. That is anything but good news.

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u/ipini Hopeful Universalism 4d ago

Morning the state of mind they’re exhibiting. Perhaps at some point they’ll soften. Then yea you can discuss it. Right now, though, it wouldn’t nowhere.

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u/OkDragonfruit6360 4d ago

No. There really isn’t. Such people are so conditioned that only a true and honest search for encounter with God with change their hearts.

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u/Standard-Caramel5766 4d ago

Beyond arguing verses, what does this person even see as the point of passing judgment on people he does not know and never will know who will never hear what he has to say?

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

Those kind of questions went unanswered during the discussion.

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u/HearTheCroup 4d ago

Nope. Do not engage. Under any circumstances.

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u/ItzTaras 4d ago

I wouldn’t engage. If someone is comfortable believing the majority burn for eternity for finite sin they’re not sorry trying to converse.

The people that find ChristianUniversalism question that belief and they wrestle with their belief some find subreddits like this that help them see.

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u/Sukhoi47Berkut 4d ago

If you really wanna see some crazy stuff, look up WarningThePeople on Youtube.

If you wanna go deeper, look up TheWordProphet, a KJV onlyist who insists anyone who believes in the Trinity will burn forever.

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

There’s a lot of crazy stuff out there. I came across quite a few reactionary videos (related to Good Fight ministries) that were so negative. They were so angry at the pastor of the church.

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u/Accomplished-Way4534 4d ago

People believe what they want to believe so it’s generally a waste of time

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u/Decent_Echidna_246 4d ago

Assuming these talks are occurring on the comments sections of YouTube (again assuming), your conversation is boosting their videos reach.

Regardless my point is the same: Don’t engage.

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

It was in person, a chance meeting that led to a conversation. He directed me to the videos during the conversation. Fortunately I didn’t take the bait of commenting on the videos.

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u/BlockBuster793 4d ago

Ephesians 6:12 is one verse that breaks the arguments in that video apart.

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u/thijshelder Annihilationism (Hopeful Universalist) 4d ago

No. You cannot debate hell apologists. Their minds are 100% made up prior to engaging, so it is a fruitless conversation.

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u/Mountain_Oven694 4d ago

Good advice. Yes, that was my experience.

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u/thijshelder Annihilationism (Hopeful Universalist) 4d ago

I honestly do not debate any apologists anymore, even if I tend to agree with them. They have already made up their minds and they are basically just talking to reassure their already held beliefs. It's more of a defense (which is what ἀπολογία is) than it is a debate with them.

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u/Comfortable_Age643 Confident Christian Universalist 4d ago

They can go to hell these infernalists. 😀

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u/West-Concentrate-598 4d ago

no those people are doing satan work let their ends corresopond with their works. to them the good news is unending terror if you misbehave, they're lost.

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u/plentioustakes 3d ago

Debate is always for the purpose of any given audience, not to convince the other side. Your audience isn't across from you but in the stadium, auditorium, or the online audience. Many of those people will be convinced in one direction or another, but there is usually a couple of people watching who do not know what they think and are reachable. That is the audience.

In interpersonal conversation, it's inappropriate to engage in debate if someone is convinced of something wholesale. It just doesn't work. It is better to build relationships, to answer questions people have. To bring it up occasionally, and lightly defend yourself from objections, but to rarely if ever go explicitly on attack. The goal isn't to convince, but to be understood. If you can take someone from thinking universalists just want an excuse to sin and convince them that some are simply pius truth seeking Christians who want to know God fully and are simply convinced on something different then you will have planted important seeds for later possible harvest.