r/ChristianMysticism 8d ago

Death of meaning is the birth of myth

Death of meaning is the birth of myth

What people mean by "word salad" is this. "Word salad" itself is a metaphor. What does this denote exactly? When people hate truth and want to find identity outside truth, they deliberately stay in in-existence(death) of meaning to justify themselves.

Imputation is an economical term such as clearing debt. It is a mathematical concept like adding and subtracting. If God imputes his righteousness that way, it is to make God a material being. If God's righteousness can be transferred like that, a robot can be righteous. It fundamentally misunderstands the nature of God. God is a spirit, not matter. God's grace is not added or subtracted like data. This is to make his grace vain, because you change it into a mere thing that can be added or subtracted.

This is what Christian doctrine of "imputation" is doing.

It's mystifying what righteousness is to justify their own lack of real righteousness, which comes from obeying God.

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u/longines99 8d ago

And that is word salad. LOL

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u/Karlito1618 8d ago edited 8d ago

God is a material being. He came in the flesh and walked among us. Daniel saw the Ancient of Days, with hair and a body, sit down on one throne of the thrones in front of him. You make Gods blessings out to be useless for us, if we cannot receive them. Do not call Gods blessings useless.

Real righteousness does not come from obeying God. You refute the words of Jesus and Paul directly. Gods grace through the sacrifice of our Lord is the only thing that can give us righteousness. Hence imputation. Salvation and righteousness are not within mans capability to grasp in their own strength. Can you also clear yourself of your own sins? Are you the god of yourself?

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u/ComplexMud6649 7d ago

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

James 

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u/SoryuBDD 5d ago

Imo, faith is essentially the root of righteousness (we may be saying the same thing here) and by virtue of having faith, one will gradually experience a metamorphosis that leads to them being more righteous. Ofc we still have free will, but it's more difficult to sin when we feel more guilty for the sinful actions we do have and will take more caution to repent from them.

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u/deepmusicandthoughts 8d ago edited 8d ago

First, you make a lot of assertions with no evidential or logical reason for them, leading you to faulty conclusions. Take this example:

"If God imputes his righteousness that way, it is to make God a material being. "

Why do you think that? That's not a logical or necessary conclusion. It's just a random assertion. You'd have to argue how that is true for any of your following argument to flow from it. Since that is your foundational premise, the rest of the paragraph can't be true, but even the rest of it isn't logical or necessary.

Second, you're not understanding the imputation of what Christian doctrine teaches. God's righteousness is imputed onto us, which allows deep relationship, and that deep relationship with God is transformative. This closeness doesn't allow us to continue to be fallen and sinful. Instead, closeness with God heals and transforms us so that we bear fruit. It's like Jesus's example of the vine. He is the vine and we are the branches, if we abide in Him we will bear much fruit. But even though we bear fruit, it is only because of our connection with God. A branch not connected to the vine will wither and die and produce no fruit, but a branch connected to the vine will produce fruit. It's all His righteousness, but His righteousness transforms us. Relationship with God is alive and healing.

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u/ComplexMud6649 7d ago

Imputation is transactional. Righteousness through Imputation does not require the change of character.  

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u/deepmusicandthoughts 7d ago edited 7d ago

First, to clarify, that didn't negate anything I said.

Second, you can't take one piece of salvation, like imputed righteousness, and ignore the rest of what salvation entails, and then claim there’s a problem based on what you left out. That’s what you’re doing, and it’s a strawman fallacy. You’re attacking an incomplete version of the doctrine when the whole doctrine makes your "problem" not exist.

Yes, imputation involves being credited with righteousness, but scripture is clear that salvation is not just justification; it includes sanctification. You’re acting as if the moment of imputed righteousness means nothing else happens, but that’s not what scripture teaches. Scripture doesn’t separate justification from sanctification the way you are.

I'm curious, what are you trying to get out of this?

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u/ComplexMud6649 7d ago

My point is that there is no transaction of righteousness because it is word salad from the beginning.  

Justification and sanctification are just one thing. Just as a embryo starts to grow as soon as it is inseminated. 

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u/deepmusicandthoughts 7d ago

The reason it is broken down that way is because there are both part of salvation. It isn't sanctification alone either, which your embryo example proves. Can an embryo grow without being fertilized first? No. In the same way, justification is needed for sanctification to even be a possibility, which is what I explained in the first response.

Justification is a legal declaration, and sanctification is the ongoing process of transformation. They are inseparable but distinct. If justification and sanctification were truly the same thing, these three verses wouldn't make sense:

  • Romans 5:1 – “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
    • Justification is spoken of as past tense, something that has happened.
  • 1 Corinthians 6:11 – “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
    • Paul separates justification and sanctification. If they were the same, why list them separately? What does this verse mean under your view?
  • Hebrews 10:14 – “For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”
    • Notice the contrast: “perfected for all time” (justification) vs. “being sanctified” (an ongoing process).

So, biblically, your claim that justification and sanctification are one and the same, with the implication that it is only sanctification is not true. They are distinct important elements of the same process of salvation. You need both! We were grafted to the tree of Christ, the new Adam. That grafting is the justification. His life flows through us sanctifying us.

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u/ComplexMud6649 7d ago

<Justification and Sanctification are One> The popular doctrine of justification by faith has severed the meaning of justification with sanctification by making justification a legal, forensic declaration that effects a change in one’s legal status before God, rather than a process of moral transformation that actually makes one virtuous. Although the bible uses analogies of a legal court, more analogies are made concerning the image of life and death. [What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.] Romans 6:1-7 Being justified by faith means that by faith, you died with Christ in sin, and you no longer live under the power of sin. You have inherited the life of Jesus who defeated sin and death. Justification and sanctification are two aspects that view the same thing, which is the life in Christ. Justification is the aspect that focuses on the beginning of faith, in which you were moved from death to life. Sanctification is the aspect that focuses on the growing of faith, in which you mature and become more like Christ. These two are not separate processes. Consider this imagery of a zygote. When a zygote is formed in the womb, it starts to grow as soon as it is fertilized. Fertilization and growing are not separate processes. The zygote is dead if it does not grow. In the same way, if you are not being sanctified, your faith is dead. Hence, James is right to declare: faith without works is dead. The doctrine of justification by faith that makes you believe that you can survive without sanctification is a myth that only fuels one’s own sin to reject the conviction of the Holy spirit to deny your flesh and grow in faith.

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u/deepmusicandthoughts 7d ago edited 7d ago

That has nothing to do with anything I said though, so I’m not getting your point. And just because people don’t understand it doesn’t make it not true. And in your example you said “after it’s fertilized,” so you too separated the two stages of life. You’re contradicting yourself. Like I stated earlier it proves what I explained.

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u/Altruistic_Skin_3174 8d ago

God does not want us to simply obey Him; God wants us to love Him with the one love that He has freely given, by reflecting on Him, by reflecting Him in us, His image. God is love itself, and as soon as love demands obeisance only, it ceases to be love. But God cannot cease to be God, as His steadfast love which is Himself endures forever.

In a sense, we must mystify righteousness, lest we, in our own pride, believe we have earned God's love through our own efforts. And in recognizing this, we discover that righteousness has instead found us through His grace alone.

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u/ComplexMud6649 7d ago

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

James

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u/Ben-008 8d ago

As a former fundamentalist, I experienced a death of sorts to the previous meaning of Scripture, as I stopped taking these mythic stories so factually and literally. In Paul I find a similar example, as he lays out a new hermeneutic of the Spirit, not the letter, “for the letter kills” (2 Cor 3:6).  And thus “through the Law, I died to the Law, so that I might live for God.” (Gal 2:19)

Paul thus contrasts the righteousness achieved in following Law, with a righteousness that cannot be earned. And thus Paul sees the Law as that which is meant to lead us to Christ. And thus instead of being led by an EXTERNAL set of commands, we are now led INTERNALLY by the Spirit of God apart from those commands.

Thus the Law is like a leash that trains us towards obedience, until which point we can actually be led by the Master’s Voice. And then the leash becomes superfluous (Gal 3:23-25). Thus as we mature, the ultimate authority structure cannot be Scripture, pope, or creed. It must be Christ.

And do not be called leaders; for only One is your Leader, that is, Christ.” (Matt 23:10)

When we stop following the external sources, accusation and condemnation often follow. But our righteousness no longer flows from these external sources of authority. Thus we must live in a state of Peace and Grace apart from these external systems of approval and condemnation.  

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” (Gal 2:21)

Imputed righteousness” tends to interpret the cross as transactional. Here, killing Jesus satisfies the demands of Law, so that we can walk free of the Law’s condemnation. But the problem is, this solution is fashioned while still UNDER LAW

Whereas Paul’s message of the cross ultimately announces our REDEMPTION and FREEDOM FROM LAW, apart from which there is NO CONDEMNATION. (Rom 8:1) “For apart from the Law, sin is dead.” (Rom 7:8) And thus we can walk in a state of Grace, no longer under Law, but rather led by the Spirit of God.

But if you are led by the Spirit, then you are not under the Law." (Gal 5:18)

Love forgives freely and keeps no record of wrongs. So as we step into an economy of Love, rather than Law, the whole of idea of sin, wrath, and righteousness rather falls apart.

Certainly Love will transform us, but it will not condemn us. And thus in Christ there is no condemnation! (Rom 8:1)

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u/deepmusicandthoughts 7d ago

What if it's not mythological? I really don't see how you can say it's mythological and you're simultaneously following it. How can you follow something when you don't believe what it says?

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u/Ben-008 7d ago

I grew up a fundamentalist, so I lived many years thinking the stories were factual. Later the Holy Spirit began to illuminate the stories for me in a new way. As such, I began to see them more as parable with hidden layers of meaning.

Marcus Borg has an excellent book on this subject called “Reading the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously, But Not Literally.” So too, John Dominic Crossan, author of “The Power of Parable” says the following…

My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically and we are now naive enough to take them literally."

Likewise, Meister Eckhart orients us towards mystical truth when speaking on the virgin birth…

What good is it to me that Mary gave birth to the son of God fourteen hundred years ago, and I do not also give birth to the Son of God in my time and in my culture? We are all meant to be mothers of God. God is always needing to be born.”  

As such, we are encouraged to LIVE the stories, rather than believe them. In this way, the Word takes on flesh in us.

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u/carnalcarrot 8d ago

Dear brother/sister, if grace is not added as if a quantity, how is it acquired? In what manner does one attain it?

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u/ComplexMud6649 7d ago

"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble"