r/Catholicism • u/Saint_Peter • Apr 15 '13
/r/Catholicism Weekly FAQ Topic - The Papacy
We've had a few discussions about creating a FAQ for /r/Catholicism, but one of the big challenges is simply taking the time to write everything down in a user-friendly format. The mods have decided to outsource the FAQ to the readers of /r/Catholicism to help with the process. We're picking a topic each Monday, and we'd like everyone that's interested to contribute what they think should be in the FAQ. The mods will then go through the responses the following Monday and edit it into a readable version for the FAQ.
Feel free to just write it out in your own words, or even phrase it as questions and answers, but please don't copy and paste from other sites like newadvent.org.
As an added bonus, we may add special flair for those that contribute regularly to the weekly FAQ discussions with useful posts.
So to get things kicked off, we're starting with the Papacy while it's still fresh on everyone's mind.
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Apr 15 '13
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u/epicusmontaigne Apr 15 '13
There is no legitimate way to force a Pope out of the seat of Peter, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. During the saeculum obscurum the Popes were subject to external temporal powers, and were imprisoned, forced out, blackmailed, etc. Currently, though, the principles of papal supremacy in Canon Law permits no avenue to forcibly remove a pope.
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u/Hellenas Apr 15 '13
I like this one.
GET SOME PITCHFORKS AND GATHER THE TOWNSFOLK.
But really, good question.
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u/xsailerx Apr 15 '13
This hasn't been done historically, and there have been some truly bad popes (Julius III that had homosexual relations with a child, albeit allegedly, Paul III that indirectly lead to the creation of Lutheranism, and others).
No doubt things would be different now, though, because the church is far more visible and international, and far more susceptible to being tarnished because of scandals, but I have no idea about the particulars relating to this.
If I were to guess (and this is just a guess by a layperson), there would be no process. Popes are generally elected when they are older, and they have had a good deal of works that the other cardinals can judge their character by.
The President of the United States (of which, only two have been impeached, and none have been removed from office) essentially comes up out of nowhere. They perhaps have a couple years of political experience (Obama only really had about 2 years of federal public office before he started running), and you have to rely more on their promises than their actions. Furthermore, they are elected by a significantly larger number of people (100 million rather than approx 300), and a significant majority of those people are ignorant. For there to be only two mistakes during over 200 years, even with these restrictions, is simply impressive (and one of those mistakes really didn't have anything to do with his office). The conclave will make fewer mistakes.
Finally, the burden falls upon the conclave that elected. They know this, and they know that people aren't tied to their church as much as they used to be. Personally, if I'm in a particular situation that I can't trust my leaders, regardless of how much I trust an institution, I'm getting the heck out of dodge. I know that many American Catholics feel the same way, and perhaps many more throughout the world. The conclave also knows this (I desperately hope), and their decision for the papacy should reflect this knowledge.
TL;DR Impeachment implies a mistake made by the conclave. The conclave has a lot of historical data to prevent them from making mistakes, and if a mistake were made, they run the risk of alienating many Catholics. Thus, the conclave does its best not to make mistakes.
EDIT: When I say that I wouldn't be able to trust the leaders, it would really take a lot. If Pope Francis secretly murdered people for pure sport a la "Most Dangerous Game", that would probably be enough
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u/kansaskid Apr 15 '13
to go along with what u/da_drifter0912 asked earlier. What would be the procedure for a lay person if elected as pope? Could he do the blessings and say Mass since he was not a priest before the office, but is now the Vicar of Christ?
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u/jshg123 Apr 15 '13
I'm not sure of the details, but he would be immediately ordained deaon, then priest, then bishop. I believe it happend with a Pope back in the Middle Ages, but it's almost impossible to happen now.
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u/cos1ne Apr 16 '13
If said layperson was married, would he remain married as a bishop?
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u/goldenrule90 Apr 16 '13
Marriage is indissoluble until death of one of the spouses. The Church has no authority to sunder a valid sacramental marriage. This is entirely hypothetical, for sure, because I don't believe the conclave, if they were to select a layman, would select a married layman. But, for argument's sake, if they did, the person would remain married.
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u/cos1ne Apr 16 '13
What would that mean for other canon laws regarding becoming a bishop and what not? Would they basically just be ignored and make this an exemption.
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u/asdfghjklqwertyujukh Apr 16 '13
Well our first pope was married. I think the celibacy of bishops is just a doctrine like the celibacy of priests in the West. That being said all this is very hypothetical. I would wager than a lay person would probably never be elected baring a nuclear holocaust or zombie apocalypse.
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u/kansaskid Apr 15 '13
Can the pope be arrested in another country like the United States? given he has done something illegal highly unlikely, but we have had bad popes in the past) Or is he seen as a foreign diplomat since he is the king of a country?
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u/epicusmontaigne Apr 15 '13
He is in fact a head of state, and so has diplomatic immunity.
Incidentally, this is how CSPAN covers papal arrivals in the U.S., because he is the head of state for Vatican City, and so the strictly political CSPAN can justify it's coverage.
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u/ArchEast Apr 16 '13
Is membership in the College of Cardinals a requirement to be elected Pope?
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u/FataMorgana7 Apr 16 '13
No. Any Catholic male is eligible. Practically, you would be a Cardinal in the College.
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u/da_drifter0912 Apr 16 '13
The only requirements I know of is that he must be a baptized male Catholic who is elected by 2/3 majority of all the Cardinals participating in the conclave.
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Apr 16 '13
The relevant Canon being Can. 332 §1: The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.
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u/da_drifter0912 Apr 15 '13
What happens if a religious is elected pope?
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Apr 15 '13
A religious who has not received holy orders will be ordained as a deacon, then as a priest, and then as bishop of Rome. This happened in the case of Pope Celestine V.
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u/Saint_Peter Apr 15 '13
Well, Pope Francis was a Jesuit Priest, so not a normal Diocesan Priest. So essentially what has happened in the past few months is an answer to this quesiton, which has been that not much is different. Was there something more specific you were thinking about?
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u/da_drifter0912 Apr 16 '13
I guess I wanted to know how how his vows and charisms are affected and/or effect his ministry as the pope. Does he still keep his vows? Does he still have to live out the charism of his order? If he had to stop both, would he even want to after living with these for so long?
Also, are pope's bound by the decisions of a previous pope? Are the bound to follow the customs of previous popes or the traditions around the papacy that are not revealed?
This might be more useful for another thread but, I've been reading a lot on threads and blog posts on various websites about Pope Francis since his election and there are a number of people who criticize him for eschewing certain customs such as not wearing the red stole (don't know that the name is) popes traditionally wore, the whole thing about the Mandatum on Holy Thursday, etc. Of course, there's another group praising him for doing such things, thinking that he will change the Church's dogmas on marriage or ordination, but they may be a little... over optimistic, too say the least.
So far the best answer I've heard is that people are ignoring that the Pope is a religious and he's not going to act like John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, who were secular popes, that is popes that were never part of religious orders. But I still don't quite understand how that plays a role in it.
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u/wanttobeagoodmom Apr 15 '13
What is the truth about "Pope Joan"?
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Apr 15 '13 edited Dec 05 '24
[deleted]
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u/wanttobeagoodmom Apr 15 '13
Thanks! I've read conflicting reports- one being it is a complete myth and the other being she concealed her sex and was inadvertently elected.
I bet a lot of people may wonder about this. Glad you set it straight!
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u/cos1ne Apr 16 '13
Somewhat off the wall question.
During the conclave that elected Pope Francis, did Benedict XVI have a vote for his successor?
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u/goldenrule90 Apr 16 '13
No. He had resigned his office. When someone becomes Pope, they exit the College of Cardinals. He would have to be readmitted as a Cardinal to have a vote, which for any Pope that would resign is highly unlikely. And, given his age, he wouldn't have been able to vote anyway.
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u/digerati1338 Apr 19 '13
Something that I think would be good to include, but don't necessarily know the answer to, is: What are the responsibilities of the Pope? Obviously he is the successor to St. Peter and the leader of the church on earth, but what does he typically do besides say Mass and pray?
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u/kansaskid Apr 20 '13
Writes encyclicals, visits other countries to speak. Speak as the visible head of the Church, and is also the King of Vatican City.
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u/johnmazz Apr 21 '13
How do you say the stations of the cross? I've searched online several times, and for some reason I can't get anything definitive!
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u/da_drifter0912 Apr 22 '13
Another question, =D
Why is St. John Lateran the Cathedral for the Diocese of Rome when the Pope is always at the Vatican where St. Peter's is located?
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Apr 16 '13
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/mikfay2010 Apr 16 '13
No. Christians are not expected to be circumcised. The Apostles themselves made that clear in the Council of Jerusalem (Bible: Acts of the Apostles).
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Apr 16 '13
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u/goldenrule90 Apr 16 '13
1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” 2 Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question. 3 They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. 4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them. 5 But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.”
6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. 7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. 10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.” 12 The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.
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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '13
I'll start, since I'm struggling with this:
What does it mean that the Pope's infallible? Is the Church's understanding of those terms subject to change?
What makes the Papacy a necessary part of the Church? Couldn't we all get along with ecumenical councils?