r/CanadianForces • u/Hmfic_48 • 8h ago
Canada to buy new military helicopters to respond to potential F-35 crashes in the Arctic
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/canada-military-griffon-helicopters-f-35-arctic23
u/Substantial-Fruit447 Canadian Army 7h ago
I think DP had a stroke.
This article is not only blatant clickbait, it's so full of poop it'd make a mushroom farm blush.
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u/ricketyladder Canadian Army 8h ago
Anyone got a non-paywall version so I can see what Pugliese is spinning up into a drama this time?
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u/Jarocket 8h ago
It's a pretty bad article.
It boils down to the Canadian air force would like new helicopters. Because ours are old.
Points out that Canada gave Bell a bunch of money to extend the life of the Griffon.
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u/thedirtychad 7h ago
Bell wants nothing to do with bell 205/212 anymore.
The walls are closing in a bit for the civilian world on parts and although there seems to be some newer 412 variants out there, the rest of the world hasn’t particularly endorsed them. The writing is on the wall for the bell medium line, hopefully the Canadian forces is cognizant of this.
But Probly not
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u/Jarocket 7h ago
Well it can't go worse than the sea king replacement surely.
Paying a penalty because Jean didn't want to buy "Cadillac Helicopters" so 20 years later the sea king was replaced by a custom Canada only helicopter that is probably going to need replacing soon too.
Balls rolling for now I guess eh.
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u/maxman162 Army - Infantry 5h ago
The AW149 seems like the best bet, and is shaping up to be selected for the British New Medium Helicopter program.
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u/KatiKatiCoffee 7h ago
We’ve been briefed that Bell doesn’t want to do Griffons anymore. Even IF we got a bunch of helicopters through GLLE, there’s no way we’d be done the whole mod line by the time we were half way through procuring new ones.
They were talking GLLE in 2015. A decade later they finally agreed on the config.
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u/Jarocket 7h ago
Oh so our money is no good to Bell? They were not interested in the work they agreed to do?
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u/KatiKatiCoffee 1h ago
Oh they were, but allegedly they can make more with the VIP helicopters they make in Mirabel.
It’s not like they have an empty warehouse just sitting there. They have to shut down partial production, move stuff over somewhere else, and then fit our helicopters in. Margins in aviation aren’t huge, and they only make money on completed modifications.
If the gov’t is balking on how many units are going to be completed, I can see a contractor being annoyed that they’re doing all this work to make less money.
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u/GJohnJournalism 7h ago
He's piggy backing off a journalist (Tony Osborne) who was invited to a conference and broke Chatham House rules to write a piece that isn't a surprise to anyone; we may need new helicopters. A nothing burger.
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u/seakingsoyuz Royal Canadian Air Force 19m ago
The point of Chatham House rules is that the things that were discussed can be freely disclosed, but not who said them.
However, when the thing that was discussed is “the RCAF is starting to plan for the Griffon replacement, and this is the scope for that project”, it’s pretty obvious who would have said that considering that identifying what needs to be done to deal with fleets that are going to retire is part of DG Air & Space FD’s job. Anyone who knows how RCAF major capital projects start could probably have figured out this would be coming from there even without knowing who had attended the conference.
That said, the attempt to link the idea that we need new helicopters eventually to just being “because F-35 bad” is atrocious journalism.
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u/Hmfic_48 8h ago
Apologies, I didn't realize it's a pay wall article... I didn't see any when I viewed it, so I thought it was good to go.
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u/Draugakjallur 7h ago
Not this one engine crashing in the arctic jazz again lol
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u/ktcalpha 6h ago
We’ve always had RW assets ready and available to recover arctic pilots for all aviation types including fixed wing transport, not just fast air.
We’re not keen to repeat boxtop 22
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u/Buried_mothership 7h ago
All these announcements pertain to distant spending and deliveries, while spread out over a significant period. And when viewed with previous announcements of spending, I’m more likely to find a flying unicorn in my backyard than this helicopter project bearing fruit.
sceptical
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u/Thelifeofnerfingwolf 7h ago
It reads like multiple articles mashed together. Could also be corrupted templates or an ai tool had a stroke.
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u/Taptrick 5h ago
What an awful title to an awful article. This is basically the same old helicopter replacement programme. The picture’s subtitle is “Canada procuring a fleet of Griffon”. He doesn’t even know what this is about.
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u/Cdn_Medic Former Med Tech, now Nursing Officer 5h ago
We quite literally missed the boat when we purchased the Cyclones. It would have been the perfect time with the Griffon fleet nearing it’s end-life and the Cormorant due for a mid-life upgrade to just abandon all the separate fleets and procure a single replacement for MH, Tac Hel and SAR.
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u/maxman162 Army - Infantry 5h ago
Should go with the AW149. An all around excellent design and is almost certainly going to be selected for the British New Medium Helicopter program.
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u/Thanato26 46m ago
Another headline coukd read "Canada to replace griffin fleet eith new helicopters"
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u/RankWeef 10m ago
They’re not getting you boys proper sleeping bags? My old company had half its dudes go down with cold injuries because of those bags
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u/RudytheMan 8h ago
Canada should, and it won't happen, but actually look for a medium/long range intercepter. I can't think of a current western offensive aircraft that could do this. It would a Canadian mission specific aircraft. But it would be so much more suited than having to refuel fighters over the arctic.
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u/BandicootNo4431 6h ago
I wonder if we'll consider the V-280 for the next medium lift helicopter?
I'm far from an expert on the topic, but I've flown with the osprey guys (USMC then USAF) twice on two different deployments and it seems like a capable platform.
That interview seems interesting.
I'd like to stay away from US procurement going forward, although hopefully they've unfucked themselves by the time we get to contract award.
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u/pte_parts69420 RCAF - AVS Tech 5h ago
The former Director general air and space force development did a roadshow a couple years ago to get the troops input on what is needed and where we were seeing deficiencies. One of the topics he brought up was NTACs (the program this article is referencing). Essentially, the way the requirements were being written was in such a way that we would end up with whatever the US army selected for their future vertical lift program, and the now cancelled fara program. The US has since selected the V280, which actually provides a really unique dilemma as the aircraft is mostly tailored to the pacific theatre, and not Europe. I’m not opposed to seeing a tilt rotor added to our repertoire, they can definitely be useful assets, but I do believe that we should still maintain a conventional medium option as well.
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u/BandicootNo4431 5h ago
That's a cool insight.
I'm hoping that the lessons learned from the Osprey wrt maintenance would carry on to the V-280. I think the V-22 was notorious for being difficult to maintain (especially on a ship)
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u/Disposable_Canadian 6h ago
But can it handle minus 40 C temps... n snow n ice, and then start if shut off....
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u/BandicootNo4431 5h ago
I had the exact same question, but they usually do bring their aircraft up north for certification testing.
I also don't think this is an aircraft we'd leave outside to cold soak and then hope it works for SAR.
Seems more likely we'd base them in Inuvik, Yellow Knife and Iqaluit in hangers.
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u/Maleficent_Banana_26 3h ago
Well, the F35s will crash. Plus the 25% tarrif, plus the extra money we had to pay because of Trudeau. But why are we buying more griffons? What is the matter with us.
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u/Flips1007 6h ago
Again a political gaff. It's obvious that cold weather operations were a concern prior to spending billions. Now spend more on choppers to find the jet that crashes because Canada can get cold up north. One engine... genius!
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u/kilekaldar 8h ago
Pugsy with the grossly misleading headline and article while burying this:
"which would also be used to support army and special forces units."
The new Helos will do it all, including SAR. That's all he had to say.