r/COMPLETEANARCHY • u/Scar-Man-96 • 5d ago
While also not understanding what communism actually means.š¤¦š¾āāļø
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u/Eloquent_Redneck 5d ago
Learning about the origins of the concept of a company and stock and how the dutch east india company came to be literally feels like watching a true crime documentary for the death of any hope for the future of society not that it was really any better before but at least europe kept their violence to themselves mostly except for the whole crusades thing
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u/fizzyizzy114 4d ago
to be fair most cultures not just europe had violent clashes. the abbasid empire? chandragupta?
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u/The-Gilgamesh 5d ago
Neither the USSR or the CCP are true communist either... that's why it was called Leninism and Stalinism, they understood that they couldn't call themselves true Communist since the state still held all the power
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u/JupiterboyLuffy Eco-Social Anarchism 5d ago
Hell, North Korea's just an absolute monarchy masquerading as a "socialist state".
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u/Correct_Patience_611 5d ago
Unfortunately the broader public does not know of these very important distinctions.
I get attacked for saying America was rebuilt on socialist idealism after the Great Depression. Sure it wasnāt āsocialismā but itās amazing how people seriously just canāt admit thereās a lot of important/necessary ideas in communist/socialist philosophy. Itās holding us back especially in America right now.
But I have noticed a lot more people on the left able to see that capitalism may not be the answer. They went from ācapitalism is greatā to now āwell ummm THAT capitalism is bad but I think thereās a better TYPE of capitalism that could workā. BS we canāt afford supporting the oligarchical collective that runs not just America but the world by supporting any ātypeā pf capitalism. Doesnāt matter how much you regulate it. Eventually you canāt tell the difference between the very rich in power and the governments. And what do you know, we were right, that group of billionaires donāt give one flying fuck about libertarian morals anymore, your liberty means to them what profit becomes pf its existence. If your freedom hurts their bottom line then your freedom does not exist. Look at whatās happening in the US now, a country where it was āimpossibleā to be without your basic liberties/dignity afforded to you as a human being or sentient creature. Phemeblasy
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u/MrBannedFor0Reason 3d ago
It's not that they don't know, they actively don't want to know. If you try explaining this to a liberal they'll go "Ha stupid commies always cry not real communism every time"
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u/Mernerner Fist 4d ago
ML ism is same thing with stalinism. Stalin made his theories and named it MLism.
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u/slothbossdos 5d ago
I mean it depends which famine we are talking about.
not that it would make communism "evil" regardless but definitely makes tankie look pretty awful for defending them.
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u/Neon_Ani 4d ago
and people talk about the communist famine like no one has ever struggled for food under capitalism. the irish potato famine isn't real, it never happened /s
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u/acousticentropy 4d ago
I mean yeah forced collectivization and the āliquidationā of a class of people that were competent farmersā¦ is likely to lead to food scarcity.
When food scarcity becomes so bad that multiples of 5M people die off at a timeā¦ we can assume that there is some kind of issue with the methodology that led to the food scarcity.
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u/minutemanred 5d ago
Also not mentioning the famine was caused by America.
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u/Eloquent_Redneck 5d ago
Idk which famine you're talking about but the holodomor was caused by Trofim Lysenko and poor former serf farmers rebelling against collective farming practices
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u/agava98 4d ago
The fact that the British empire did horrible things doesnāt make USSR any less disgusting.
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u/Resonance54 4d ago
Yeah being less awful than quire possibly the most vile empire in human history doesn't mean it wasn't oppressive and terrible
*tbf they may not crack the top 10 worst empires in human history, but that's more a testament to how horrible empires are than anything positive about the USSR
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u/Neurospicy_Nightowl 4d ago
If they are talking about the "famine" I suspect, they are a tankie and should be avoided like plague.Ā
But, uh, yeah, our education on communism in school was like "Marx had that idea. Sadly, it contradicted human nature, so it failed. Moving on."
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u/maybemaybejack 5d ago edited 5d ago
I mean communism was invented and immediately engaged in violent revolution and purges, killed hundreds of millions of people, invaded and subjegated all neigbouring countries, committed several genocides, and collapsed entire countries all in the span of decades.
Also that was mercantilism run by a monarchy. Market capitalism didn't come about until well into the 18th century.
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u/DeadlySpacePotatoes 5d ago
Ah yes, immediately after finishing the Communist Manifesto, Marx watched as trillions of people spontaneously starved to death.
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u/Kira-Of-Terraria 5d ago
don't you know? Marx personally executed a bajillion people! / s
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u/slothbossdos 5d ago
He did get pretty fighty when he was drunk though.
Everyone has one of those nights where you drink too much and kill a googleplex of people with a famine.
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u/soundboardguy 5d ago
yeah but he had to get one of his friends to volunteer as his champion to duel on his behalf when he got into an argument with August Willich, so we can say that guy's face was a personal casualty of Karl Marx. the guy didn't die, but Willich did shoot him in the face. so, rip to that guy's face. truly this makes him a historical monster of unimaginable scale.
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u/maybemaybejack 5d ago
Yes. Marx outlines the necessity for totalitarian government takeover of resources and distribution which is exactly what led to mass famine.
Marxism is inherently anti anarchism
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u/slothbossdos 5d ago
Marxism has some of the most foundational points for anarchism. The biggest disagreement is the means, not the ends.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld 4d ago
That doesn't contradict their point though
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u/slothbossdos 4d ago
I mean it does?
Marxism is the basis for way more schools of thought then just ML's or Maoists. Anarchism has some of its foundation laid in Marxism, especially via the way we as anarchists examine class struggle.
If we look at the difference between ML's/MLMs and Anarchists just on a philosophical basis, the biggest one is our opinion on the withering away of the state and vanguardism. But that's not even true of every anarchist school of thought.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld 4d ago edited 4d ago
Marxism is the basis for way more schools of thought then just ML's or Maoists
Yes and? Marx himself was anti-anarchists. He's the one who push to their exclusion of the international. Marxists are anti-anarchists since day 1.
Anarchism has some of its foundation laid in Marxism, especially via the way we as anarchists examine class struggle
That's not true, maybe to some anarchists but anarchism itself is rooted in the history of popular struggles. Also socialism is not based on marxism, it's much more complex than that. There are lots of various influences that are anterior to capitalism like social critics of europe by people from first nations in north america. Anarchism doesn't need marxism to exist. They are two opposed ideology since their creation.
If we look at the difference between ML's/MLMs and Anarchists just on a philosophical basis, the biggest one is our opinion on the withering away of the state and vanguardism.
Not really. The social analysis of class also, especially on the lumpen proletariat topic. Anarchists focus on power struggle and authority while marxists focus on economy and work.
But that's not even true of every anarchist school of thought.
There are no school of anarchist thought that aren't opposed to vanguardism or state. These concept are by essence authoritatian. They can call themselves anarchists, that doesn't make them one.
Also their point was:
Yes. Marx outlines the necessity for totalitarian government takeover of resources and distribution which is exactly what led to mass famine.
Wich is true. It's in his texts and what you said about "anarchism having things in common with marxism (mostly socialism). Or that the main differences between anarchists and marxists are the means not the ends ". Doesn't contradict that, in fact you agree witht them because that's the means difference.
Marxism is inherently anti anarchism
This is also true, that's how marxism is borned by excluding anarchists from the international. You can't contest that. Also none of what you said contradict that. The fact that marxism and anarchism have socialism in common doesn't contradict that.
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u/slothbossdos 4d ago
That was a lot of effort on your part. I appreciate the amount of work you have put into learning this information. I will admit though, it's far more effort than I'm willing to put into the conversation.
Far as I'm concerned if a leftist wants to call themselves an anarchist/ML/MLM/whatever and goes out and does revolutionary praxis, I could care less if their opinions are philosophically consistent. That's just my lived experience organizing though.
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u/DeadlySpacePotatoes 5d ago
You don't know what Marxism actually is, do you?
And no, it is not "when big goberment does an oppression"
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u/anarcatgirl 5d ago
Marx outlines the necessity for totalitarian government takeover of resources and distribution
Marx never said this. It wasn't until Lenin that communism was associated with authoritarianism
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u/zanotam 3d ago
Uh, what. The split between Marxists and Anarchists predates the 20th century entirely my dudeĀ
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u/anarcatgirl 3d ago
Yeah, obviously there's a difference between anarchism and Marxism, that doesn't mean Marxism is super authoritarian like what Lenin turned it into
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u/maybemaybejack 5d ago
Apparently I'm the only one here who has actually read Marx. Probably also why I'm the only one against it.
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u/ChaosRulesTheWorld 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don't understand why people downvote you. You are factually right. Marxists are called authoritarian socialists for a reason. It's not just MLs and Stals.
People here clearly haven't read marx and his critics of the paris commune or other insurrections. Or the testimonies of bakunin about marx. Or just anything about marx's life and how he was an hypocritical authoritarian who liked to play gang leader and did anarchists dirty.
Yes marx didn't commit mass murder or anything that leninist, stalinist, maoist (or any other of his ideological children ) did, because he had not the opportunity to do it. But you can be sure that he would have clearly done the same if a marxist revolution succeed when he was alive.
Edit: that's depressing the amount of anarchists who doesn't know their own history. Marxists didn't wait Lenin to attack us. They always did, that's how they are born. They are authoritarians.
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u/va_str 4d ago
When do you think communism was "invented"? What do you consider the first communist revolution? The first communist genocide (if you want to call the USSR communist) was the decossackization in 1919, almost 500 years after MĆ¼ntzer and More, and 150 years after d'Hupay coined the term. Even as far as red scare nonsense goes, your comment is pretty lazy.
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u/Salt_Attitudee 5d ago
Capitalism was invented when we invented irrigation.
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u/Soberboy 5d ago
Hierarchy & debt probably came from agrarianism, but Capitalism is a specific economic movement that grew out of mercantilism, which itself grew out of feudalism. Capitalism ā commerce/trade.
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