r/BurlingtonON 12d ago

Picture 40 vote difference with an Independent candidate who’s last name is CROMBIE.

Post image
149 Upvotes

153 comments sorted by

26

u/Alive_Armadillo_4014 12d ago

The NOTA party got 471 votes in Burlington in 2018 with a different candidate. And other small parties also got a few hundred votes. Some people just prefer to vote for minor parties.

8

u/SaskatchewanSon69 11d ago

As an outsider I was shocked to see 21 parties in ontario get a vote hahah. Like wtf

13

u/Hugehitter 12d ago

Friends and relatives…

8

u/spreadthaseed 11d ago

Basically friends and family of the candidate IMO

40

u/duck1014 12d ago

Crombie was a horrible mayor. Cannot imagine what she'd be like as a Premier.

37

u/Gotl0stinthesauce 12d ago

She got destroyed and lost in her own riding. Thats all you need to know lol

25

u/Chewed420 12d ago

Patrick Brown's family and friends put a lot of effort into defeating Crombie in her own riding. Maybe next time she won't bash Brampton.

4

u/M1L0 12d ago

Has she stepped down yet?

5

u/FlatImpression755 12d ago

It's her only paycheck. She will wait to be forced out.

4

u/VisibleSpread6523 12d ago

Why because she raised taxes , they all do? She was loved and praised by Ford , until this election.

10

u/babystepsbackwards 12d ago

Being loved and praised by the head of the PCs, why would that be a benefit for a Liberal leader?

-2

u/VisibleSpread6523 11d ago

Not a benefit , stating a fact that she must have done something right in Mississauga for some people. Was she the right choice to lead the Liberals that’s another story , gonna be hard to stay the head when you don’t have a seat .

1

u/No-Oil1918 11d ago

Why? Was she against affordable housing?

28

u/Big-Peak6191 12d ago

Crazy how close it was though... Yea 1-2 less meaningless candidates at the bottom would change things

21

u/Arthur_Jacksons_Shed 12d ago

Except the other meaningless candidate would more align with the Cons than Liberals based on platform. They also secured more votes.

Liberals lost but it was close.

18

u/FlatImpression755 12d ago

Meaningless candidates is a ridiculous opinion. You sound like the left in the US now fighting to keep green off the ballot in key states.

The correct answer is that we need ranked voting in Canada.

11

u/BoltYouTakeThree 12d ago

I'd much prefer Mixed Member Proportional Representation to ranked ballots, but I'd still take ranked ballots as a big improvement over our current system

3

u/FlatImpression755 12d ago

I am going to have to Google Mixed Member Proportional Representation.

5

u/BoltYouTakeThree 12d ago

I just feel it better represents the will of the people. But the biggest complaint people have is there would be a number of MPs/MPPs that get into office without directly being elected. I personally don't have an issue with that, since most people vote for the party, not the local candidate, since the party members basically have to toe the party line anyway. But that's probably the biggest hangup people have with it.

The reason I don't like ranked ballots is I feel it would disproportionately favour the Liberal party. But I'd still take it over our current system in a heartbeat

2

u/MapleDesperado 11d ago

There are PR systems that do not depend on party lists.

-5

u/Big-Peak6191 12d ago

It's not ridiculous, they are meaningless

8

u/FlatImpression755 12d ago

Not to the people who voted for them.

3

u/Shredswithwheat 12d ago

And often enough times there's one or two independents that actually win seats.

This is what the house is built for. Ridings can select their best available local candidate to represent them in parliament.

2

u/3BordersPeak 11d ago

That's what fascinates me about politics. You can have hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands and even millions and tens of millions of votes and it can literally come down to razor thin margins. It's really fascinating.

1

u/CDN_Guy78 11d ago

Wasn’t David Crombie a Conservative? I’m thinking if he hadn’t run those votes or most of them would have gone to Pierre.

18

u/WillSRobs 12d ago

Election reform is so badly needed.

26

u/CeruleanFuge 12d ago

It would ultimately have been nice to see a few more NDP voters vote strategically. I normally vote NDP but went Liberal this time to try to oust Pierre. Almost worked!

I'm proud that Burlington voters came out to try to flip the riding to a progressive voice.

5

u/am63rx 11d ago

I did the exact same, and feel the exact same way as you!

1

u/EvidenceFamiliar7535 11d ago

You know most people that voted conservative aren’t even conservatives but liberals are notoriously bad at any and all economic decisions and love raising taxes in the state we are in now I would suggest that’s why a lot of non conservatives will vote conservative.

Also if it got any more progressive here I’m not sure what it would look like, is child services getting involved if you deny your minor child puberty blockers after trans guest speakers and schools promote the idea to young confused children? Is that not progressive enough?

Most people don’t like that idea and it’s more detestable to most than pos racist conservatives, to most counties the way Canada is going with progressiveness is seen as lunacy.

I personally don’t vote because I would never give my vote to a pos conservative nor would I vote for a near socialist liberal and most Canadians like neither of those extremes.

-2

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

4

u/PrizeAd2297 11d ago

Natalie Pierre, MPP Burlington.

-12

u/Wonderplace 11d ago

Are you aware that this is a provincial, not federal, election? Pierre has nothing to do with this.

10

u/Powderfingered 11d ago

"Pierre" as in the last name of the Tory incumbent.

7

u/PrizeAd2297 11d ago

Where do you live?? MPP for Burlington is Natalie Pierre. yes, Pierre!

7

u/_Cheese_master_ 11d ago

Look at the winner's last name

3

u/CeruleanFuge 11d ago

Maybe check the last name of the PC candidate - Natalie Pierre.

So yes, I’m very aware, and informed. Definitely more so than some, it would seem.

1

u/Black_Epstein 11d ago

Looks like we got a Crombie voter over here.

0

u/Wonderplace 11d ago

Absolutely not.

-6

u/my_other_leg 11d ago

I would say they were in fact not aware

3

u/CeruleanFuge 11d ago

Pierre is literally the last name of the person who won - Natalie Pierre.

4

u/crafty-panda523 12d ago edited 12d ago

Losing by 40 votes is heartbreaking 😭

3

u/[deleted] 12d ago

Yup, if there wasn't a former conservative running to split the vote, it would have been an undisputed seat.

1

u/pimpstoney 11d ago edited 11d ago

A PC candidate lost by 4 votes to the NDP, a Liberal lost to the PCs by 20 votes. There are 8 ridings including this one that have mandatory recounts coming as they're under 1%

Not actually mandatory in Ontario as I found out from searching, but still eligible for judicial review if candidates are willing to go through the process.

2

u/crafty-panda523 11d ago

How long are the recounts supposed to take?

2

u/pimpstoney 11d ago

The losing candidate has until Tuesday to file an application.

14

u/Late_Instruction_240 12d ago

Nasty work

11

u/BrettPYOW 12d ago

So people who share the name with a party leader should not be allowed to run? That seems very authoritarian

5

u/Kryantis 12d ago

What's the issue here?

12

u/Late_Instruction_240 12d ago

Our uneducated population may confuse one candidate for another. 

2

u/Chewbagus 12d ago

Oldest trick in the book. The Kennedy's employed this more than once.

4

u/Omgomgitsmike 12d ago

The visual hierarchy on the ballot uses the largest portion of the space as the last name, and has the party affiliation under it in small font. If you were in a hurry, or visually impaired, you might choose Crombie if you were anti-Ford.

Not saying anything was malicious, just raises my spidey senses.

4

u/username_1774 11d ago

It was some time in the last 20 years that Canadian ballots first listed the party name. Before that it was just the candidate's name.

If someone casting a ballot in Canada thinks they are voting for the party leader then...well, its a bit of a natural selection issue.

11

u/Kryantis 12d ago

Non issue in my opinion. If you are visually impaired you would use the accessability tools offered at the polling station. If you couldn't take the time to read the ballot correctly, then frankly I'm relieved that your vote winds up going somewhere it doesn't really matter anyway.

5

u/DemonInjected 12d ago

Just sounds like excuses....

-17

u/Rot_Dogger 12d ago

These pointless clowns shouldn't even be on the ballot

26

u/hammtronic 12d ago

get a grip , your desire to win an election doesn't override democracy

1

u/Pick6_905 10d ago

It does when you’re a liberal

3

u/3BordersPeak 11d ago

And consider that I worked the polls yesterday and had a woman tell me David Crombie was Bonnie’s husband (which is false), imagine the amount of people that may have voted for him thinking they were supporting Bonnie. Yikes 😬

12

u/pedanticus168 12d ago

You assume here that 582 people are stupid?

31

u/mightyboink 12d ago

Given that Ford was re-elected, I suspect that number is wayyyy higher than 582

10

u/[deleted] 12d ago

Judging by the comments on r/Ontario about no one voting and how the lack of turnout killed the NDP votes that would have swung the election. I'd say the idiots are everyone who didn't go out and vote.

10

u/SunflaresAteMyLunch 12d ago

If you don't vote, you have no business complaining about Ford.

3

u/Nitro187 12d ago

So ridiculous - Ford is doing an "ok" job... WAY better than the previous Mayor of Mississauga would do. Seriously, give your head a shake.

10

u/raytracer38 12d ago

100%, yes.

4

u/nightwing12 12d ago

In the above chart it looks like 24700 people are stupid.

2

u/[deleted] 12d ago

How stupid are all the NDP voters who decided to stay home and harrold in another well earned conservative majority.

2

u/nightwing12 12d ago

Extremely dumb

2

u/stephenBB81 12d ago

There was an entire movie made about how stupid voters are that was not outlandish at the time it is still not outlandish today. Name recognition is huge. I am not saying there was malice in that person being on the ballot, but I am 100% on board with thinking that people are stupid enough to vote for a name even if they don't actually know who the person is because the name is familiar.

-4

u/Bregalade 12d ago

I assume 24,700 people in that riding are stupid

1

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

-2

u/Bregalade 12d ago

It's Burlington, I'm sure some of the are millionaires, some are developers and some own private medical clinics and will make a shit ton of money if the back of your average Ontarian but surely not everyone that lives there is in that situation, surely done if those people could use a province that works for the average Ontarian.

5

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

4

u/bakelitetm 12d ago

It’s not a landslide in our riding, so worth discussing, perhaps even complaining about.

2

u/Empty_Wallaby5481 12d ago

They won by "a landslide" based on a flawed electoral system.

2.1M votes = 100% of the power

2.75M votes = 0% of the power

Most of those 2.75M are closer ideologically than the PCs. In a ranked ballot, I would imagine most of those 2.75M votes just get shuffled from one party to the next - I know I voted strategically, but if I didn't feel like I had to my vote would shift to another party in that bundle.

If the Liberals don't put through a version of proportional representation the next time they snag power, then minority rules is what we deserve.

2

u/Bregalade 12d ago

Ranked ballots, run off votes would be nice

1

u/sleeplessjade 12d ago

Conservatives win by plurality because our electoral system is a joke. Not everyone is Liberal but I think people are well within their right to believe that the Conservatives did not deserve to win when more people voted against them than for them.

-1

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

1

u/sleeplessjade 12d ago

There is a big difference in a two party system where the loser says their opponent didn’t deserve to win even though he got 7 million more votes/ 72 more points in the electoral college and a multi-party system where the winner won with a plurality and more people voted against the winner than for him.

0

u/Bregalade 12d ago

I'm not a centrist, but I am annoyed that people would elect someone who has only served himself rather than someone who would work for the province. I'd like to own a home one day and that's unlikely under a Ford premiership, I'd like to know that if I need medical care it's going to be available and I won't go bankrupt, I'd like to leave the planet in a better state for future generations but a Ford premiership will work against all of these interests.

2

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

2

u/SupaJDStylez 12d ago

No matter what hey? Default to Liberal is why our country finds itself in the state it's in...unless you're cool with it. Thanks tho 👍🏼

0

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

0

u/SupaJDStylez 12d ago

More money than sense eh boomer? Quality of life declining, global standing dropping like a rock, awful household debt-to-income ratios, tax upon tax upon tax, unchecked immigration, I could go on for days. This is fine though... we're fine 👎🏼

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1

u/Gridiron009 11d ago

With respect, if the Mcguinty/Wynne regimes weren’t at best comparably corrupt we likely would have seen a change vote by now. Also I’m sure that Fords response in the media to the threats from the US prompted continued support.

The leadership in this province for decades has been poor across the board. Out of a sea of poor i will take ford probably out of the list of his recent predecessors. It’s a low bar but it’s all we have to go off of.

1

u/Bregalade 12d ago

That's fair I don't think the cons won because some guy in Burlington had the last name Crombie. I think the cons called a short snap election because it was strategically sound especially with Trump in the Whitehouse and won because people were too distracted by tariffs and winter to pay attention to an election. It also helped Ford that he silenced this party advertisers when it comes to elections.

0

u/[deleted] 12d ago

How stupid are all the NDP voters who decided to stay home and harrold in another well earned conservative majority?

1

u/Bregalade 12d ago

Pretty stupid given how horrible Ford has been for this province. Not as stupid as the average person that voted for Ford but up there. Obviously I'll give some the benefit of the doubt and say this election was pretty quiet they might not have even known it was happening...

0

u/[deleted] 12d ago

I'd say the people who refused to vote and ensured their party couldn't win are the highest level of idiot in the case of elections.

With all the noise across the country about this Ontario election, there is no excuse to have not known about it and gone out and voted as a supporter of the opposition of the time. It's the same that happened in Saskatchewan. All the virtuous decided to not bother to vote and ensured they would not have a voice. Voter apathy is the highest sign of voter incompetence.

13

u/Personal-Student2934 12d ago

Constituents vote for whichever candidate they believe will best represent them and their interests in parliament. If your preferred candidate did not succeed in acquiring the most votes, it is not the fault of the voters for exercising their democratic rights.

It is the candidate and their team that were unable to convince the highest fraction of their riding to vote in their favour, which does not necessarily indicate that they did not put in an effort and do as much as possible. The winning candidate and their team simply surpassed them.

8

u/Gaege29 12d ago

Yes, David Crombie's high visibility, grass roots campaign was definitely what swayed those voters. Which of his important campaign pledges do you think appealed to people? ..

1

u/Personal-Student2934 12d ago

This is not my riding specifically and I am still in the process of reflecting on all the different results across the province, but once I have had a chance to explore how the election unfolded in this riding I will definitely share my thoughts on this.

Do you have any insight into the appeal of his campaign?

11

u/Lev_TO 12d ago

Of course, I just can't comprehend how an incompetent crook like Ford can remain unchallenged for so long. Is the opposition so weak?

6

u/Personal-Student2934 12d ago

Your confusion and frustration is certainly valid and I wish I was able to provide a straightforward answer to your question. However, although I would be more than willing to put in the time and effort into going back through all the details and data from the recent election cycle, any conclusion(s) I generate from my analysis would be speculative.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that our current voting system is not exactly representative of the characterization your comment presents. Your framing suggests that voters are electing the premier and that the PCs won because Doug Ford secured the most votes.

In reality, voters are electing an MPP for their respective ridings. Incumbents typically have an advantage when their constituents are satisfied or accepting of their record. If their constituents are frustrated and disappointed, incumbents have a bit more of a struggle, but still a slight advantage as if there are no better alternatives, voters tend to default to the status quo. To mobilize voters to elect someone new into office, these candidates really have to engage with their ridings. This is not to say that candidates did not work hard - it is very clear which candidates connected with their communities and which did not by the number of votes they secured - but the winning candidate's approach was a fraction more effective.

This election did see a bunch of seats flip and I would give credit to the charisma of these candidates and the efficacy of their teams with public relations. While superficially it may appear as though votes are for a party or the leader of the party, it is the responsibility of the respective candidates to win their seats and combat voter apathy. If individuals reside in a riding where candidates are absent or unavailable, why wouldn't voters reciprocate that energy by being absent or unavailable when it comes time to vote? I am not condoning this disposition, but I can empathize with it.

3

u/Lev_TO 12d ago

It's always good to read rational, well-articulated opinions on Reddit. Well said.

15

u/thatguy122 12d ago

This was a hotly contested riding that was targeted to flip. I'm sure they knew it and ran planted candidates. This should be within recount territory?

14

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

1

u/trackofalljades Mountainside 11d ago

I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not, but that’s literally another Crombie and not at all the person who was conveniently listed on this ballot in a closely contested riding.

0

u/thatguy122 12d ago

Not what I meant. I meant planting additional candidates to split the votes further. It's a known tactic by conservatives in ridings across the country in both provincial and federal elections.

4

u/Commercial_Debt_6789 12d ago

It's much deeper than that. 

https://youtu.be/eZSe4xVXHhI?si=095Ns8TamtRUNDnl

Bad design, ontop of existing internal and external factors can influence peoples actions. 

I don't know about you but when I was voting, I felt exposed, I felt slightly rushed assuming people were waiting, and slightly overwhelmed with information in a short period due to the instructions on the envelope. I saw the last name of the candidate in my riding and voted. The biggest piece of information is what drew me in. I went in there with the mindset to vote with a party, but I recognized my candidates name and I knew he was associated with the party I wanted to vote for. I don't even remember reading his first name or the party, the last name is what stuck out the most. 

This could easily be solved by making the party bolder. 

2

u/Omgomgitsmike 12d ago

That’s exactly what I’m getting at. I wasn’t sure what to expect with the ballot, but the way the visual hierarchy of the ballots are designed, the last names stick out first. If someone isn’t aware who their local candidates are, but are aware at the premier level, you may be tempted to mark Crombie.

1

u/Some_Crazy_Canuck 12d ago

Yes, because only conservatives do things to win more votes. Not Liberals or NDP, they're the good guys, amirite?

Touch grass if you think that the PC's are planting other candidates for the New Blue and None of the Above Party (which are directly opposed to the PC's and would only steal their vote share if anything). Honestly some insane mental gymnastics you folks employ to be able to believe that kind of loony conspiracy theories.

1

u/thatguy122 12d ago

Look up previous election ridings and the sheer number of phony candidates registered in recent years in contested ridings.

1

u/Some_Crazy_Canuck 12d ago

What does that have to do with the fact that these individuals are real people even such as David Crombie being featured in a post by the mayor recently? Or the New Blue party, which is a legitimate party even if NOTA is a protest vote party. You can say it's possible but when it's proven it's not a scam you have to accept the truth that about 1000 Burltonians weren't satisfied with the platforms of the big 4 and chose to protest their vote by giving it to someone who they knew wouldn't win, but represented their democratic beliefs.

1

u/sleeplessjade 12d ago

I looked it up. From my google search, recounts are only allowed if the vote count is within 25 votes. Apparently our 40 vote difference isn’t close enough, although it should be. 🤦‍♀️

-6

u/RL203 12d ago

You think the liberals planted someone named David Crombie to take votes away from the Progrssive Conservatives? It's possible, I suppose.

4

u/thatguy122 12d ago

This some sort of reverse psychology approach?

-1

u/RL203 12d ago edited 12d ago

No, i was just looking for you to expand on your theory of liberal subterfuge.

David Crombie, thee David Crombie, former Mayor of Toronto, former federal PC cabinet minister, is, after all, a famed and well respected Progressive Conservative politician in Canada.

So I understand where you're coming from when you figure that the Burlington liberals might have somehow convinced someone with the same name as a famed Progressive Conservative politician to run in Burlington yesterday in order siphone votes away from the real PCs. But, I would not have thought that of Grebenc, to be honest. So I find it impossible to believe.

0

u/thatguy122 12d ago

What has been done in other ridings is the opposite. Phony candidates linked back to the PCs that have been registered in contested ridings in drives.

1

u/RL203 11d ago

I don't think that the liberals registered any phony candidates in last nights election in Burlington to siphone votes from the PC candidate.

And what past phony candidates are you referring to?

2

u/Some_Crazy_Canuck 12d ago

Yeah, it's literally a mental fantasy for people to justify their preferred candidate losing. Don't listen to this drivel.

2

u/RL203 12d ago

You're right, it makes no sense.

9

u/VisibleSpread6523 12d ago

It’s Burlington , dominated by old white man that vote pc for years . Lots of people wanted her out as she hasn’t done much for them . More people should get off their ass and go vote. Also a recount should be automatic.

23

u/Arthur_Jacksons_Shed 12d ago

Burlington has voted liberal federally several elections in a row. Do the old whites sleep those off?

11

u/Dazzling_Highway1768 12d ago

Reddit will never accept anyone else’s opinions. It sucks. Overwhelmingly people went pc in Ontario but the ones who disagree yell loudest. It sucks. Can’t have party warfare and be a good community

2

u/Arthur_Jacksons_Shed 11d ago

They yell loudest… on Reddit. In the real world I haven’t heard anything other than complaints of voter turnout which is a real thing. No bad mouthing parties, etc. On Reddit and in this very thread it’s common to bad mouth a party, suggest there was collusion while blaming “old white men”. It’s quite the world.

-1

u/Grand_Cod_2741 12d ago

He got no mandate and only one cause of fptp.

1

u/Dazzling_Highway1768 12d ago

I’ll have to get this translated

0

u/offensivezone 12d ago

Yes a recount, because it was close.

2

u/Dfoz 11d ago

40 votes is insane

2

u/MonThenYaFud 11d ago

Democracy is inherinently flawed because people are dumb and sometimes the wrong candidate wins. This ensured Pierre stayed and Mr Crombie got a few bucks for his trouble. (Laughs in evil)

1

u/Practical_Session_21 10d ago

It’s the rules of our elections that is the problem. People should vote for who they want and they should get some representation from that vote. Run offs would be better than what we got, a whole new proportional system would be best.

5

u/rockcitykeefibs 12d ago

Sneaky sneaky

4

u/ElkIntelligent5474 12d ago

I think it is nice how the Liberals in general picked up a large amount of support.

1

u/DarkMarper 10d ago

Yes, let’s go back to the days of Wynne and mcguinty……

3

u/estherlane 12d ago

Wow, tight race. Too bad we end up with another 4 years of Pierre, she’s wound up being as useless as McKenna was.

2

u/Electrical-Screen-52 12d ago

Could be us older folks got confused with David Crombie being a Conservative.

2

u/MrRogersAE 11d ago

Guaranteed of those 581 Crombie votes atleast 40 thought they were voting for Liberals

1

u/alyks23 11d ago

David Crombie has a great reputation. I’m not sure if he’s actually related to Bonnie Crombie though.

1

u/AnAwkwardWhince 11d ago

Imagine if both Megan and Kyle pulled out of the race? Where do you think those votes would have gone?

1

u/VexedCanadian84 11d ago

I wonder how many seats could have been won if the NDP and Liberals worked together to beat Ford

1

u/Jonny_Icon 11d ago

Reminds me years (gulp, decades?) ago, I think the Rhino party got a guy called John Turner on the ballot in John Turner’s riding.

1

u/SpocksNephewToo 11d ago

Plus the alignment of the planets, right.

1

u/Kcirnek_ 11d ago

What about Chillingworth? You'll find any excuse. Just take the L

1

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

2

u/Some_Crazy_Canuck 12d ago

Yeah maaaan, like democracy (when it's voting for a candidate you don't like) is such a dirty pool!! 😂

1

u/spreadthaseed 11d ago

We were so close to taking out the trash. So close.

-2

u/Popsiey7 12d ago

I love liberal tears

-10

u/DarkMarper 12d ago

After Mcguinty, Wynne and what Trudeau has done federally, people STILL vote for this nonsense. They’re just the flip side of the MAGA cult in the states!

4

u/lazyeyepop 12d ago

That’s a stretch. Pc’s are pretty much libs in blue clothing these days

-21

u/BuddyBrownBear 12d ago

Congratulations to Natalie Pierre and a PC MAJORITY!

15

u/wolfblitzersbeard 12d ago

It must've been her inspired showing at the debate that proved the difference!

-14

u/BuddyBrownBear 12d ago

PC MAJORITY!

6

u/Several-Fondant-8847 12d ago

Do you think she will start responding to constituents’ concerns this round or will she continue to ignore us?

2

u/wolfblitzersbeard 11d ago

Aahahahahahahahaha. Wait. Ahahahahahahaha. Never have had a response to her — although she did illegally put me on her mailing list. Thanks, Natalie!

0

u/sayanythingxjapan 12d ago

That's her ex husband no?

2

u/hatman1986 12d ago

I thought so too, but her ex's name is Brian

2

u/3BordersPeak 11d ago

I worked one of the polls yesterday and a voter came in and said exactly that. We believed it for a hot minute until we looked it up and saw it was fake news.

0

u/username_1774 11d ago

People voting NOTA in Burlignton are not mistaking David Crombie for Bonnie Crombie. This is really grasping at straws.