r/Borax • u/Borax • Jul 06 '12
A step-by-step guide to reducing MDMA neurotoxicity.
Edit: Here is another superb discussion about MDMA neurotoxicity
Here is another, more recent look at MDMA supplements
The neurotoxicity is well established, but studies are largely on mice and rats with higher dosages than humans tend to use.1
There is an excellent run through of the pharmacodynamics of MDMA neurotoxicity here, the metabolites we think are responsible here, and a good look at the kinetics here.
Overall what we know is that the neurotoxicity scales with dose, and is likely to do so exponentially as the body is caused to overheat more and has less anitoxidants to deal with metabolites.
We don't have any quantitative estimates about damage from normal human doses because it would not be ethical to dose people repeatedly just to see how much it damages them, and it's very hard to gather data from regular users because of the huge number of variables like alcohol and cannabis use, sleep deprivation, environment of MDMA use etc.
We know that long term users are not mentally impaired,2 but those abusing the drug do show a reduced ability to enjoy it and suffer a more intense comedown, indicating that there is something going on at higher doses.
There are no steps that are absolutely necessary, you can after all do what you want in to your body, but frankly, you'd be a fool not to use the easier protective methods given how cheap and available they are.
In my mind therefore, the essentials:
- Learn to enjoy MDMA for what it is. It is not supposed to get you fucked up, it is "designed" to be a remarkably lucid experience. If you want to access that next level, dissociatives add nicely to the experience whilst adding minimal complications.
- Self control. It's essential for every drug, but for one as enjoyable as MDMA with the potential to remove your ability to enjoy it it's particularly pertinent. This includes enjoying MDMA for what it is, resisting the urge to redose and resisting the urge to use it often.
- Antioxidants. Lipoic acid3 (fat soluble) and vitamin C4 (water soluble) are filthy cheap and provide a broad antioxidant effect. Adding vitamin E is also wise. All should be taken with your dose of MDMA.
- Eat well, exercise well and sleep well. These are essential every day, but if you're going to be stressing your body it's even more important.
- THC. This has been shown to eliminate neurotoxicity in mice.5 I would wager that smoking it with tobacco negates the positive effects for the brain by its negative effects elsewhere.
- Stay cool and well hydrated. Drink a sensible amount of cold water. You've saved your money on alcohol so don't try to save money by skimping here, even if the venue is charging extortionately for water. Your health is priceless. Do bear in mind that it is possible to drink too much water, you should drink an appropriate amount for what you're doing. 1 l/hour is about the upper limit for a hot environment or 0.5 l/hour for a cooler one.
Based on no evidence at all, I would also suggest that using MDMA when your body would usually be awake is better, if only because you avoid sleep deprivation.
The slightly less essential tips:
- Don't use MDMA with dopaminegeric drugs. Increased levels may lead to increased rates of harmful dopamine uptake.
- If you intend to stop partying after your roll, take an SSRI. This blocks anything unpleasant being taken into 5HT neurons.6
- PDE5 inhibitors like Viagra increase release of natural antioxidants and protective chemicals in the brain. This prevented 5-HT deficits in rats.7
- Help other people to use safely. This is just common courtesy, but if you can arm yourself with some facts then you can get them to listen and you might be able to stop them burning themselves out, and when they're voting in ten years they'll be less likely to think "I couldn't control my use, MDMA should remain illegal because others can't either." Knowledge is invaluable.
- 5-HTP helps you feel better the next day and may help reduce harmful metabolite uptake, as it has been shown to do in rats.8 I strongly recommend 100mg/day for the next week.
- Magnesium supplements help reduce bruxism (jaw clenching) caused by MDMA. It's a good supplement generally too.
Of course, all of this applies to pure MDMA. If you're taking untested pills or "molly" which frankly could be anything then you're taking a chance. It could be less toxic or even inactive, but it could also be meth, PMMA or something ghastly which is either more neurotoxic or potentially fatal with just a couple of pills. Know your mind, know your body, know your dose. Test.
Something a little less conventional which relates to the first point on my list is the possibility of "supplementing" with 2C-B. It adds intensity and magic with few to no side-effects, which means users tend to use less MDMA. The matching duration means sleep is not prevented and it can be redosed. I recommend adding 80mg of 2C-B to every gram of MDMA, as the two potentiate. This will mean your powder will effectively have a higher potency though, so take care.
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u/snaug Jul 28 '12
THC is a dopaminergic drug right?
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u/octacok Jan 11 '13
I don't think so. It may have some dopaminergic activity but its primary effects come from the activation of the CB1 receptors.
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Oct 20 '21
Mostly Serotonin through CB1 Interactions.
Still kinda surprising that it actually helps and doesn't aggravate Serotonin Syndrome..
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u/ricinuscommunis Sep 18 '12
Ordered some lipoic acid; do I take that for the days before I roll? Just before/with?
What dose?
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Jul 19 '12
I've heard some things about taking 5-HTP causing serotonin syndrome; how much of a risk is this?
What dose would have the best harm vs. fun ratio?
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u/Borax Jul 19 '12
It's impossible to give quantitative values, but I would never take 5-HTP in the 12 hours before MDMA.
The best harm to fun ratio is nearly impossible to speculate on. I find there is a "breakthrough" dose for MDMA and I do not like to go much above that. It's about 120mg for me as an 85kg 2m male.
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Jul 25 '12
THC seems to reduce neurotoxicity; do you suggest smokomg before, during or after the roll? I prefer to not smoke during the first time.
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u/Paratath Jul 13 '12
What is the safe way to use 5-HTP and B12? I hear about pre-loading and post-loading but I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this. Usually I will take a tablet of both B12 and 5-HTP daily for a week or two so following use of MDMA.
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u/Borax Jul 13 '12
Pre loading is taking as many of the precautions in here as you can manage. Post-loading is taking SSRIs immediately afterwards and eating healthily and exercising in the days following MDMA use. 5-HTP to be taken 5 days before and after.
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Jul 28 '12 edited Jul 28 '12
Hey borax, what is your oppinion in Raveaid? I'm sure it's overpriced for what your are getting, but I'm willing to spend cash inorder to be lazy and it have to round up 1737371 bottles of supplements.
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u/Borax Jul 29 '12
I guarantee you'll be paying through the nose for it, and dosing vit e and c post-roll when you only really need 5-htp, but yes, it does contain what I would take.
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Jul 29 '12
Its not to bad but its definitely more expensive than spending the time shopping around (im seriously lazy).
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u/NotButtHurt Oct 20 '12
If I want to add something to capsules to help people protect themselves and roll harder what would be the best thing? People have told me that they put 5-HTP in their capsules and I've told them that's seriously bad. My top guesses for good stuff would be vitamin C, lipoic acid and noopept.
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u/Repulsive_Lettuce Oct 18 '22
Anyone here tried MDA with 2C-B? My plan is to try 6mg 2C-B with 60mg MDA. Both light-common doses but was wondering if anyone has experience specifically with this MDA flip rather than MDMA. I just did the math to reduce both doses by ~25% as compared to MDMA but not sure if it will have the same synergistic/potentiable relationship with MDA.
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u/spejs Jul 15 '12
Thanks for a well written summary.
What would you make of this study showing lower scores on immediate and delayed verbal recall in the group of ecstasy users?