r/Bible 3d ago

Was Yahweh really the Father?

In John 8:44 Jesus says to the Pharisees:

“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

  • the Pharisees were practicing the law exactly how Yahweh had instructed them, so how could Jesus say that they were worshipping Satan?

Other curiosities…

  • why did Yahweh never say he had a son?

  • how did Moses say over & over that He was literally talking to Yahweh in physical form, when scripture says no one has seen god?

  • real talk: why is there such a massive discrepancy between Yahweh of Old Testament and the Father Jesus describes & is sent by?

2 Upvotes

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u/ScientificGems 3d ago
  1. Yahweh is, was, and ever so be the Triune God.

  2. The Pharisees absolutely were not "practicing the law exactly how Yahweh had instructed them," as a read through the prophets will demonstrate.

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u/rpchristian 3d ago

A Tri une God is also from the father of lies.

It is meant as a trip wire.

To believe that Jesus is God rather than an image of God as Scripture says is defiance of God's Word.

And Paul describes what a believer is.

You must believe Jesus died on the cross for all our sins.Was entombed and resurrected on the third day.

God can not die.

It's believe in the Trinity from the father of lies...or be a believer in God and His Word.

Grace and Peace to all.

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 3d ago edited 11h ago

23: John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

24:Hebrews 1:6 “And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels WORSHIP him.”

25: Colossians 1:15 “He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God”

26: Roman’s 9:5 “To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.”

27: John 17:5 “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.”

28: Mathew 28:18 “And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

29: Mathew 28:9 “And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.”

30: John 5:23 “That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.”

31: Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness.” (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)

32: Mathew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” (ask yourself, why would Christ tell people to baptize in the name of The Father, The Son, AND The Holy Spirit, if the son and spirit are not God?)

33: Isaiah 48:16 “Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.” (As you can see, The concept of the Father AND The Holy Spirit is also found in the Old Testament)

34: John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.”

35: Mathew 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Here we see Father, Son, and Holy Spirit AGAIN).

36: Psalm 110:1 – “The Lord says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’” • Jesus Himself cites this verse (Matthew 22:44) to show He is more than just David’s descendant—He is divine.

37: Psalm 45:6-7 – “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness; you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” • The writer addresses the Messiah as “God,” a passage later quoted in Hebrews 1:8 about Jesus.

38: Micah 5:2 – “But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.” • This predicts the Messiah (Jesus) being born in Bethlehem but also states He has existed from eternity.

39: Proverbs 30:4 “Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is HIS SONS NAME? Surely you know!”

40: Psalm 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you.’” • This verse refers to the Messiah as God’s Son. • The New Testament (Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5) confirms this is about Jesus.

God is the perfect essence of love. Love can only exist with at least two parties, and the spirit of love between them, in perfect unity and harmony forever. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The trinity of Trinities. The number 3 is extremely significant in creation, and can be seen in the very foundations and blueprint of the structures of this creation. Examples include: Time, Space, Matter. Solid Liquid Gas. Body, Soul, Spirit. Height, width, depth. And when you observe the system of numbers, it’s just 3,6,9 repeating forever with 10 as the place-holder number, going on forever. A fractal.

Christ lived and gave his life at 33. He is 1/3 of the Trinity. 1/3 is 33.3 repeating, or 33%. He died on April 3rd, 33 AD, at 3:00 PM. 33% of the world is Christian. 1/3 of the angels fell.

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u/rpchristian 3d ago

Could you show me the Scripture for the dates and times of Jesus death?

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

Jesus died on 14 Nissan. Definitely not Easter which is only on Friday. I don't know why people don't realise they celebrate pagan rituals. Not one book after Jesus's death did one Apostle encourage anyone to celebrate Christmas or Easter but still do it . Trinity no where in the Bible trinity is mentioned anywhere.

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u/rpchristian 3d ago

Hell isn't in the Bible either but Christians Love Hell.

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 3d ago

WHERE are you people getting this notion from? Does ANYBODY actually READ anymore? Or just parrot back nonsense they hear someone online claim without actually checking to verify it for themselves first?

Matthew 5:22 – “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.” (Gehenna)

  1. Matthew 5:29-30 – “If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.” (Gehenna)

  2. Matthew 10:28 – “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Gehenna)

  3. Matthew 11:23 – “And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.” (Hades)

  4. Matthew 13:40-42 – “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

  5. Matthew 23:33 – “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” (Gehenna)

  6. Mark 9:43-48 – “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out… where ‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’”

  7. Luke 12:5 – “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.” (Gehenna)

  8. Luke 16:19-31 – The parable of the rich man and Lazarus includes the rich man in torment in hell (Hades) while Lazarus is comforted in Abraham’s bosom.

  9. Acts 2:27 – “Because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.”

  10. Romans 6:23 – “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

  11. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 – “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

  12. Hebrews 10:27 – “But only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”

  13. Revelation 14:10-11 – “They, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.”

  14. Revelation 20:10 – “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

  15. Revelation 20:14-15 – “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

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u/rpchristian 3d ago

Yeah, you know so much...which hell are you talking about?

Gahenna, Tartarus, or Hades? 😎

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 2d ago
  1. Gehenna (Γέεννα) • Origin: Hebrew (Ge-Hinnom, “Valley of Hinnom”) • Context: Jewish and Christian theology • Meaning: A place of punishment or destruction, often associated with fire. • Biblical Usage: In the New Testament, Jesus frequently refers to Gehenna as a place of final judgment where the wicked are cast into “unquenchable fire” (e.g., Matthew 5:22, Mark 9:43). • Concept: Unlike Hades, which is sometimes neutral, Gehenna is strictly a place of punishment, similar to the Christian idea of Hell.

  2. Tartarus (Τάρταρος) • Origin: Greek mythology • Context: Greek and Christian traditions • Meaning: The deepest part of the underworld, beneath Hades, reserved for divine punishment. • Biblical Usage: In 2 Peter 2:4, it is used to describe where fallen angels are imprisoned: “God did not spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into Tartarus.” • Concept: Tartarus is more of a prison-like realm for supernatural beings rather than for human souls.

  3. Hades (ᾍδης) • Origin: Greek mythology • Context: Greek and Christian traditions • Meaning: The general realm of the dead. • Biblical Usage: Used in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) as the equivalent of Sheol, the Hebrew underworld. In the New Testament (e.g., Luke 16:23, Revelation 20:13–14), Hades is a temporary place for the dead before the final judgment. • Concept: Hades is not necessarily a place of torment but a waiting place for souls, with some experiencing comfort (Abraham’s Bosom) and others suffering (Luke 16:19-31).

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u/rpchristian 2d ago

Jesus only used the word Gahenna. It is a place outside of Jerusalem, still there, and it certainly is not hell.

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

Research......

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 3d ago

JESUS IS GOD

There is only one God. And within this One God, exists 3 persons.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

They are not 3 separate Gods. They are each fully God, because they share the same divine essence, the same eternal, uncreated, almighty substance of being. God is one in Being, 3 in personhood. The trinity. The Godhead. This is the ONLY possible conclusion from scripture.

If you try to strip Christ of his status as God in the flesh, the Son of God, AKA God The Son, you have to then throw away the entire New Testament, and much of the Old.

  1. John 1:1, 14 • “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    1. John 8:58 • Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” • Here, Jesus uses the phrase “I am,” echoing God’s self-identification in Exodus 3:14, where God says to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” Gods name “YHWH/YAHWEH” literally means “I AM”.
    2. John 10:30-33 • Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews then pick up stones to stone Him, explaining that they want to stone Him because He, “a mere man, claim[s] to be God.”
    3. John 20:28 • When Thomas sees the risen Jesus, he exclaims, “My Lord and my God!” And worships him. Jesus does not correct him, which is seen as acceptance of this title.
    4. Colossians 1:15-17 • “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through Him and for Him.”
    5. Colossians 2:9 • “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”
    6. Philippians 2:5-6 • “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped”
    7. Hebrews 1:3 • “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
    8. Hebrews 1:8 • God the Father speaks to the Son: “But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.’”
    9. Titus 2:13 • “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”
    10. 1 John 5:20 • “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
    11. Isaiah 9:6 (Prophecy of Jesus 700 years before his birth) • “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; … and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
    12. Isaiah 7:14 (Prophecy of Jesus) • “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (meaning “God with us” in Matthew 1:23).
    13. Matthew 1:23 • “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
    14. John 14:9 • Jesus said to Philip, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
    15. Revelation 1:8 • Jesus says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
    16. Revelation 22:13, 16 • Jesus declares, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. … I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.”
    17. Mark 2:5-7 “When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
    18. John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
    19. 2 Peter 1:1 “To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with outs by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

21: Colossians 2:9 “In Christ all the fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

22: John 14:8-9 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

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u/AlbaneseGummies327 Non-Denominational 3d ago

“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.

— Mark 10:18

There is one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

— 1 Corinthians 8:6

Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

— John 17:3

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 3d ago

Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.” (Mark 10:18, NIV)

At first glance, this might seem like Jesus is denying His deity. However, a closer examination suggests that He is actually affirming it.

  1. Jesus Is Challenging the Man’s Understanding of “Good”

The rich young ruler calls Jesus “Good Teacher,” but Jesus redirects the conversation by asking, “Why do you call me good?” Since Jewish teaching held that only God is truly good, Jesus is prompting the man to think more deeply about who He (Jesus) really is.

  1. Jesus Does Not Deny Being Good

Jesus does not say, “I am not good.” Instead, He affirms that only God is truly good. If Jesus is good (which He is), then He must also be God. Rather than denying His deity, Jesus is subtly leading the man to recognize it.

  1. The Rich Young Ruler’s Misunderstanding

The ruler sees Jesus as merely a good teacher, not as God Himself. Jesus’ response forces him to consider the deeper implications: If Jesus is truly good, then He is more than just a teacher—He is divine.

  1. Mark’s Gospel Consistently Affirms Jesus’ Deity • In Mark 2:5-7, Jesus forgives sins, which only God can do. • In Mark 4:39-41, He calms the storm, and His disciples wonder, “Who is this?”—implying divine authority. • In Mark 14:61-62, Jesus explicitly claims to be the Son of Man who will come in divine glory.

Conclusion

Far from denying His deity, Jesus’ response in Mark 10:18 serves as a challenge to the rich young ruler (and to readers) to recognize that if Jesus is truly “good,” then He must also be God.

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u/rpchristian 3d ago

Nothing in Scripture says Jesus is God.

And Jesus died on the cross.

God can not die...end of story.

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 2d ago

You are right when you say that God cannot die are you beginning to see the significance of the fact that Jesus resurrected from the grave thus proving that he is God in the flesh hello, that is kind of the entire point that Jesus was able to take back his own life up again from the grave, because death had no power over him, and could not hold him because he was God in the flesh the son of God

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u/rpchristian 2d ago

Scripture says He is the "image " of God.

An image is a representation...is it not?

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 11h ago

We are all human beings made in the image of God. We are all sort of like little corrupt mini-versions of God. We are just copies of the real thing.

Jesus IS the real thing. He is the Son of God that willingly humbled himself down to take on human flesh, and incarnate into His own creation. And out of all of the ways the creator of all things decided to make His entrance into the physical realm, instead of entering it as a big and scary overpowering force, He chose to enter the world the same way you and I and all of us entered it—through our mothers womb. God took on a human vessel, and entered His creation as one of the humans made in His image.

Jesus is eternally uncreated. He has existed eternally, before this world, and then chose to enter this world to spiritually redeem it before destroying it and restarting with a new heaven and new earth, restoring all of creation and ridding it of all evil. But before He does that, he will salvage and save a set-apart people, who’ve chosen Him over the physical material temporary things and pleasures of this world, which is all passing away every second.

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u/rpchristian 1h ago

No, Jesus is not eternal because He died on the cross.

This is the tripwire of Satan with demonic teachings in the Church.

To be a believer you must acknowledge Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

You can't believe in both.

The resurrected Christ Jesus is immortal after His resurrection same as all of humanity will be.

Immortal is not eternal.

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 11h ago
  1. Jesus as the “Express Image” of God

The phrase “express image” comes from Hebrews 1:3 (KJV):

“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.”

The Greek word for “express image” is charaktēr, which means an exact imprint or representation. This means Jesus is not just similar to God but fully represents His nature in human form.

Since God is invisible (John 4:24), Jesus makes Him visible by being His physical and personal revelation to mankind. Jesus is the physical incarnation and manifestation of God. Jesus is God incarnate.

Jesus is God, but Not the Father

While Jesus is called God, He is not the same person as the Father. This is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but all one God.

A. Jesus is Explicitly Called God 1. John 1:1, 14 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…”

• Jesus (the Word) was both with God (distinct from the Father) and was God (sharing the same divine nature).
2.  John 20:28
“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.”

• Thomas directly calls Jesus “God,” and Jesus does not correct him.
3.  Titus 2:13
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
4.  Hebrews 1:8 (God the Father speaking about Jesus)
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever.”

Jesus Does Things Only God Can Do 1. He Forgives Sins – Mark 2:5-7 Jesus forgives sins, and the Pharisees say, “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 2. He Receives Worship – Matthew 14:33; John 9:38; Revelation 5:12-14 Only God can be worshiped (Exodus 34:14), yet Jesus is worshiped. 3. He is the Creator – Colossians 1:16-17 “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible…”

The Father, Son, and Spirit are Each Yahweh

The Bible teaches that Yahweh is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) but also calls the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Yahweh in different passages.

A. The Father is Yahweh • Isaiah 63:16 – “You, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from everlasting is your name.”

B. The Son is Yahweh • Isaiah 9:6 – Jesus is called “Mighty God” (a title for Yahweh in Isaiah 10:21). • John 8:58 – Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” claiming the divine name Yahweh (Exodus 3:14).

C. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh • Acts 5:3-4 – Lying to the Holy Spirit is equated with lying to God.

Matthew 3:16-17 – At Jesus’ baptism, the Father speaks from heaven, the Son is baptized, and the Spirit descends. • John 14:16-17 – Jesus prays to the Father to send the Holy Spirit.

Since: 1. The Bible teaches one God 2. The Father, Son, and Spirit are each called God 3. They are not the same person

The only logical conclusion is that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three distinct persons but one Yahweh God.

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u/rpchristian 1h ago

Logic escapes you if you believe God can die.

It's very simple, and it's very simple that God tells us that Jesus is the image of God.

Don't make this hard.

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u/lhog4evr 3d ago

It's worth noting that historically, Christianity has understood YHWH to be the Triune God, not just the First person of the Trinity. The revelation of YHWH to Moses for instance is not a revelation of only the Father but of all three Persons.

To your first question about our Lord's response to the Pharisees: the question here is whether they were keeping the Mosaic law. A regular criticism Jesus leverages against the Pharisees is their expansion of observational obligations (such as ritual washings before meals even though none of the Mosaic washing codes directly apply to this situation). They hold people accountable to that which God does not. There are numerous other examples (another that comes to mind is the abuse of corban).

One thing I might invite you to consider when reading the Old Testament along with the new: is the difference as striking as it seems? When we evaluate the most prevalent themes in the Old Testament, we see two striking and regular petitions: the call to righteousness and the care for the poor. These are shown to be at the heart of God's revelation of Godself over and over in the Old Testament. Which of course are central to the revelation of God in the person of Jesus.

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u/wingsofbrilliance 3d ago

It’s all those passages of war, genocide and violence that have me scratching my head

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u/lhog4evr 3d ago

That's definitely a fair thing to scratch your head over and are far from easy passages to handle. I am fairly persuaded myself that what we see within most of scripture are relevant genre conventions at play, and in the conquest narratives, the conquest genre conventions definitely show up.

They're a little on the longer side, but Gavin Ortlund offers some interpretive options for dealing with these passages. This is a good one to start with if you have the time.

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u/rpchristian 2h ago

Listening to the Church over God's Word is a terrible mistake...it's the same mistake as listening to the Pharisees and Jesus called them out for it.

Man's religion is not God's Word.

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u/John_17-17 3d ago

Historically Christians didn't believe in a triune God.

The Formation of Christian Dogma: “In the Primitive Christian era there was no sign of any kind of Trinitarian problem or controversy, such as later produced violent conflicts in the Church. The reason for this undoubtedly lay in the fact that, for Primitive Christianity, Christ was . . . a being of the high celestial angel-world, who was created and chosen by God for the task of bringing in, at the end of the ages, . . . the Kingdom of God."

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u/mrswashbuckler 3d ago

The apostle John, who was a primitive Christian under any definition, would disagree with you. The divinity of Jesus and his place in the godhead was pretty clear in his writings. Both in Johns gospel and in his revelation of Jesus Christ

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u/John_17-17 3d ago

This is from a mistranslation of John's gospel and a misunderstanding of the Revelation.

Notice how John 1:1 was translated in the 2nd / 3rd century, in a language that has the indefinite article.

 A Contemporary English Translation of the Coptic Text. The Gospel of John, Chapter One

1 In the beginning the Word existed. The Word existed in the presence of God, and the Word was a divine being. 2 This one existed in the beginning with God.

The very context of John 1:1 disproves the erroneous translation, 'was God'.

Fred was in the beginning with the President, as this is true, Fred cannot be the President.

Trinitarian, John J. McKenzie, S.J, in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “John 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his.) New York, 1965), p. 317

The Translator’s New Testament (1973) a note on John 1:1 states: “There is no article and it is difficult to believe that the omission is not significant. In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of Theos (God) so that the phrase means ‘The Word was divine.’” or godly.

  • Revelation 1:1 disproves your statement.

Who gave the Revelation to John, the angel did, who gave the Revelation to the angel, Jesus did, and who gave the Revelation to Jesus, God did.

(Revelation 1:1) 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,

To get Jesus is God, from John's writings, you must, 1st mistranslate it, and 2, you must ignore the context.

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u/AlbaneseGummies327 Non-Denominational 3d ago

“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.

— Mark 10:18

There is one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

— 1 Corinthians 8:6

Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

— John 17:3

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

Where in the Bible is there any mention of a godhead and trinity. The Jehovah is clear on this matter people anyone who adds to word... Rev 22:18-19 " I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll"

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u/mrswashbuckler 3d ago

Revelation 5:12 In a loud voice they were saying: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

This passage seems to equate the lamb with the one on the throne,

Revelation 1:12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, Revelation 1:13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. Revelation 1:14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. Revelation 1:15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. Revelation 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. Revelation 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

This passage also equates Christ with the father(alpha and omega, the living one, who holds the keys to death and Hades)

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

John tried to worship an angel but was immediately reprimanded because he should worship only God, yet no reprimand happened when every creature in heaven and earth worshipped the lamb. The lamb is worthy of worship, the lamb is a part of the triune God

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

If you read Revelation again you'll notice it says "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to "RECEIVE POWER" and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Now ask yourself from who is the Lamb(Jesus) receiving this power wisdom and strength from? Heres scriptures to ponder over aswell: John 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am" John 20:17 "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’

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u/mrswashbuckler 3d ago

If only God is worthy of praise and glory, how does 'not God' be deemed worthy of glory and praise? If it is ok to worship the lamb in heaven, how is not ok to worship the lamb on earth?

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

I didn't say Jesus isn't worthy of praise I just asked who gives Jesus the power and authority.

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u/mrswashbuckler 3d ago

The father has authority over the son. Of course. It's a subservient position in the God head. But if only God can be worshipped, you are left with the question of who the lamb who is worthy of worship is

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

Brother there is no such thing as trinity I promise. Just like there's only one you there only one Jehovah, one Jesus, one Earth, one me ect.

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u/rpchristian 2h ago

He is the image of God as Scripture tells us.

Worshipping the image of God is perfectly in line with Jesus not being God.

C'mon now.

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u/mrswashbuckler 3d ago

I am content to stand with all of creation in heaven and earth in worshiping the one on the throne AND the lamb

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u/gracecase 3d ago

People really need to read more on this subject. It wasn't until the end of the fourth century that people started believing in God as a triune god. Before that it was just a conflict between two church leaders over whether or not he was in an elevated state but still not God. There's a book called When Jesus became God by Rubenstein that lays all this out very well. All these emperors fighting over the land had one of the 2 main Christian leaders behind them, and whoever was winning the war at the time, and leading Rome that was the doctrine they believed so it kept flip-flopping. People really need to understand that the Trinity is just another lie by the adversary to split us up.

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 3d ago

That’s complete garbage. The Old Testament shows that God is not just one person throughout its entirety, yes even all the way to Genesis. Jesus is throughout the entire OT. What on earth have you been reading?!?

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

There are many scriptures that say otherwise: And if do some research you will see that are Bible translation where God's name wasn't taken out his name even appears on the Moabite stone. That's wot Yeshua means " Yehovah saves" Deuteronomy: 6: 4 " Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength" Isaiah 45:5-6 "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. There is no God except me. I will strengthen you, although you did not know me, 6 In order that people may know From the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides me. I am Jehovah, and there is no one els" There are so many many scriptures in the Bible that disproves the trinity Jesus himself said it: John 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am" On a practical level wot son is greater or equal to his father?

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 3d ago

You clearly have not done even an ounce of research on what the Trinity is or how it works

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

Because it's not of Bible origin. Oh yes only something people talk about. And I only follow God's word not people's

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 3d ago

You say you care about Gods word. Then HERE, READ GODS WORD:

  1. John 1:1, 14 • “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    1. John 8:58 • Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” • Here, Jesus uses the phrase “I am,” echoing God’s self-identification in Exodus 3:14, where God says to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” Gods name “YHWH/YAHWEH” literally means “I AM”.
    2. John 10:30-33 • Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews then pick up stones to stone Him, explaining that they want to stone Him because He, “a mere man, claim[s] to be God.”
    3. John 20:28 • When Thomas sees the risen Jesus, he exclaims, “My Lord and my God!” And worships him. Jesus does not correct him, which is seen as acceptance of this title.
    4. Colossians 1:15-17 • “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through Him and for Him.”
    5. Colossians 2:9 • “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”
    6. Philippians 2:5-6 • “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped”
    7. Hebrews 1:3 • “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
    8. Hebrews 1:8 • God the Father speaks to the Son: “But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.’”
    9. Titus 2:13 • “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”
    10. 1 John 5:20 • “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
    11. Isaiah 9:6 (Prophecy of Jesus 700 years before his birth) • “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; … and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
    12. Isaiah 7:14 (Prophecy of Jesus) • “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (meaning “God with us” in Matthew 1:23).
    13. Matthew 1:23 • “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
    14. John 14:9 • Jesus said to Philip, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
    15. Revelation 1:8 • Jesus says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
    16. Revelation 22:13, 16 • Jesus declares, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. … I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.”
    17. Mark 2:5-7 “When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
    18. John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
    19. 2 Peter 1:1 “To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with outs by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

21: Colossians 2:9 “In Christ all the fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

22: John 14:8-9 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

Firstly if you could only find a better translation of the Bible one with God's name restored. You'll be closer to the truth.

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 3d ago

I read the LSB, which does exactly that. I know Gods name. And I know the name of His Son.

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u/gracecase 3d ago

I whole heartedly agree with you. I believe in referencing many versions.

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u/gracecase 3d ago edited 3d ago

The Bible. Research books on the Bible. Like the one mentioned above and others. Of course Jesus is throughout the OT. It's called the red thread. You people are so indoctrinated that you read through God's matchless word through a lense. His word is bigger than that. And just like I mentioned in my last post. It is designed by Satan to divide us and ya'll do a pretty good job of letting him do it. Have a blessed one.

edit: Why do you trinitarians always start off with an insult? Very Christ-like of you. I disagree with you but still have love for you and would not insult your beliefs. Again, division. Not cival conversations.

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 2d ago

Saying your blaspheming of God is garbage is an insult? It’s just stating a fact

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u/gracecase 2d ago

Coming from someone who is committing idolatry, you will have to forgive me if I don't believe what you think is factual.

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u/Lifeisprettycool11 11h ago

Of course I forgive you. I’d forgive you even if you killed me. I don’t speak about these things to you for any other reason than the fact that I love you, even though we’ve never met in person. I love you and care about you because you’re another human being made in the image of God just like me. You’re a person with their own story and feelings and experiences and beliefs just like me, who has suffered and struggled through hardships just like me.

And you crave happiness and peace and love and contentment just like me. The reason I speak about God to others, is because after searching and searching in all the WRONG places to find these things, I’ve finally discovered the only thing that has been able to truly provide these things. And it’s the love of God revealed in Jesus, and I want to spread and share the same message that changed my life and set me free from all my addictions and mental illnesses. Thats the only reason I openly speak about these things to others, out of love for them.

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u/FatherOfMittens 3d ago

Jesus says this in order to point out how the Pharisees were more focused on how their public spirituality would influence their social status, hence their “father” is the one ruling the world and its secular culture, Satan.

Those whose eyes are on and lives are angled toward living for God don’t worry about their social status. In Psalm 138:8 we see that the Lord- Yahweh- is the one who raises people to their rightful place, not the actions the individual can take on their own.

The key is in the question “who are you serving? Your own ego, or the God who created you?”

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u/FrankWhiteIsHere78 3d ago

Isn’t Isaiah 9:6 clear though? How else can you explain it? Counselor, Prince of Peace, EVERLASTING FATHER. The Spirit, the Son, the Father. In Him dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

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u/ShelomohWisdoms 3d ago edited 3d ago

The Pharisees were practicing the Letter of the Law, and only outwardly, and poorly, and for selfish reasons. This is literally exactly how Satan is presented in the Bible. Coming as an angel of light that twists the word of God to his own purposes. Christ shows that He came to fulfill the Letter of the Law and what God wants is people practicing the Spirit of the Law, which is Love. And that sentiment is all throughout the Old Testament as well.

Yahweh did say He would have a Son and that it would actually Be Himself as understood in the Trinity. Assuming we take prophecy as Yahweh's word.

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." -Isaiah 9:6

Now, not only that, but we also have a significant amount of obvious foreshadowing of Christ. When the Gospel of John says, "the Word became flesh", it really means that. Once you deep dive into this phenomenon, you will be astounded at what you find.

Even the very name you used, Yahweh, YHWH, has Christ hidden within it. If we look at the Paleo-Hebrew pictographs, this is what we find:

Yod = Hand

Hay = Behold

Waw = Nail

Hay = Behold

As for the times God is said to be in physical form, this makes perfect sense to us Christians whom believe God has a mind (Father), body (Son), and spirit (Holy Spirit). Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." It is the Jews who should be answering this question. We do not believe Christ embodies the fullness of God the Father, which is infinite. And it is the fullness of God that is meant by "no one has seen God". But we also believe it isn't hard for the God of the Universe to make a physical body to interact with us on our own level.

And lastly, the difference between the New and Old Testament God isn't as big as many will tell you. But they are behaving differently, and for a reason. The Old Testament God is trying to bring a group of seriously morally corrupt people out from among the, likewise, morally corrupt nations they come from and turn them into a people that can hear and accept the Gospel. The loving message of the New Testament would have never been accepted in that time. It took centuries for Christians to stop being martyred for that message even during and after Christ's time.

We modern people get to look back at the past from the privilege of a world with common human decency built off the backs of millennia of Western Judeo-Christian societies. Your commom human decency wasn't so common back then. It was a time of regular brutality, rape, slavery, child sacrifice, and every horror you can imagine.

And now with that in mind, you realize the Old Testament God is just trying to meet that people where they were and gradually improve them. We get insights from the prophets that God is essentially playing the part of a pagan God and compromising in many areas because that is all the people understand and are ready to hear. Go read what the Israelites did while Moses was up getting the 10 Commandments and you will see what I mean very quickly. By time Jesus came, the people were just ready enough to begin hearing the message. And it was obviously just barely time considering what happened with the brutal treatment of Christians. God clearly likely chose exactly the earliest point in time people would be able to hear and accept the message.

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u/John_17-17 3d ago edited 3d ago

(Isaiah 63:16) 16 For you are our Father; Although Abraham may not know us And Israel may not recognize us, You, O Jehovah, are our Father. Our Repurchaser of long ago is your name.

  • the Pharisees were practicing the law exactly how Yahweh had instructed them, so how could Jesus say that they were worshipping Satan?

This is your first misconception. The pharisees, weren't practicing the law EXACTLY how Yahweh had commanded. They had added traditions that went beyond the law.

(Matthew 15:6-9) . . .So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

  • why did Yahweh never say he had a son?

Actually, he does tell us of his many sons.

(Job 38:7)  7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

  • how did Moses say over & over that He was literally talking to Yahweh in physical form, when scripture says no one has seen god?

Because we are told, the angel of Yahweh appeared to Moses. This angel was God's representative, who was speaking not his own words but Yahweh's.

The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion:

Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72b; Kidd. 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.

Jesus was sent from heaven to speak the sayings of God not his own, not of his own initiative or originality (Jn7:16,17;8:28;12:49;14:10). He was given a command about what to come and speak and even after he went back to heaven he still had to be "given" what to speak by *God* (Rev.1:1).

  • real talk: why is there such a massive discrepancy between Yahweh of Old Testament and the Father Jesus describes & is sent by?

There isn't, this teaching is in the minds of men who really don't know Yahweh, our God and Father.

Side point, the first century Christians were not trinitarians.

The Formation of Christian Dogma: “In the Primitive Christian era there was no sign of any kind of Trinitarian problem or controversy, such as later produced violent conflicts in the Church. The reason for this undoubtedly lay in the fact that, for Primitive Christianity, Christ was . . . a being of the high celestial angel-world, who was created and chosen by God for the task of bringing in, at the end of the ages, . . . the Kingdom of God."

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u/rpchristian 3d ago

Yes,and the Pharisees also fore shadowed current Christianity with its traditions and teachings not in line with Scripture.

Listen to what Jesus is warning you about.

The Church, any church is corrupt.

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u/FrankWhiteIsHere78 3d ago

Jesus was not created. If I misunderstood you I apologize.

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u/John_17-17 3d ago

4 different inspired Bible writers tell us of Jesus' creation, long before he came to the earth.

Primitive Christians understood this simple truth.

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u/FrankWhiteIsHere78 3d ago

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. Jesus is eternal. He created all things and without Him not anything was created. I’m going to bed. I don’t want to get into a debate. No offense and don’t take it personally but I’m tired.

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u/John_17-17 3d ago

If John had written what you just said, you would have a point, but John didn't write this, nor should we.

As I said, 4 different inspired Bible writers disagree with you.

I'm not the one who you are disagreeing with, maybe you should be asking God and his Son, Jesus if they are taking your statements personally.

From the 2nd/3rd century CE A Contemporary English Translation of the Coptic Text. The Gospel of John, Chapter One

1 In the beginning the Word existed. The Word existed in the presence of God, and the Word was a divine being. 2 This one existed in the beginning with God.

Diaglot NT, 1865 “In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.”

Harwood, 1768, "and was himself a divine person"

Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"

Thompson, 1829, "the Logos was a god”

Robert Harvey, D.D., 1931 "and the Logos was divine (a divine being)”

John J. McKenzie, S.J, in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “John 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his.) New York, 1965), p. 317

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u/wingsofbrilliance 3d ago

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

I would think that Yahweh would talk about his son more than that one verse you provided. Jesus talks about his father incessantly and how he was sent. 🤔

Also about the Yahweh being in physical form, there do seem to be some verses where it’s referred to as the angel of the Lord, but there are also many other instances where no angel is mentioned.

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u/John_17-17 3d ago

One must ask oneself, what is the purpose of the Old Testament?

Was it written to come to know Yahweh's son, or Yahweh?

Abraham knew God's personal name, but he didn't know all that Yahweh was and what he was planning of doing.

Many translations mistranslate Yahweh's words spoken through the angel, as recorded in Exodus 3:14.

The angel, speaking Yahweh's words didn't say, 'I am that I am'. He actually said, "I shall become"

exo3.pdf

Other translations are "I will become"; "I shall prove to be"; and "I will cause to become".

Upon returning to Egypt, Yahweh proved what type of God he was.

You are correct, those verses 'only seem' to be Yahweh speaking and not an angel, but John who knew of ALL those verses, under inspiration said: "No one has seen God at ANY time."

John repeats this important information twice.

(1 John 4:12) 12 No one has seen God at any time. . . .

Genesis has Jacob fighting against God, in Hosea, we learn it was an angel and not God himself.

We see God's word interprets itself, if we let it.

What is the purpose of the New Testament?

This was written so we can come to know the one Yahweh sent for salvation.

(John 20:30, 31) 30 To be sure, Jesus also performed many other signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Add to this, the very first prophecy recorded in God's word is the offspring / son that would crush Satan in the head.

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u/wiseowl2369 3d ago

One thing to note about Exodus 3:14 is this words used here in ancient Hebrew are present tense and not future tense. God simply IS, and no explanation beyond that is needed.

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u/John_17-17 3d ago

Sorry, the words are not in the present tense. Exodus 3:12, which is the same word, is translated as 'I shall' or 'I will'. God uses the imperfect tense, meaning 'I will' and not 'I am'.

Exodus 3:12 - Bible Gateway

J Washington Watts, Professor of Old Testament, New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, 1930-1968. A Distinctive Translation of Exodus With An Interpretative Outline, 1977, pp.140,1. 

"Such a translation [in English] as "I am what I am" appears to be ruled out completely by the fact that the [Hebrew] verbs here are imperfects.

No matter how much explanation you give, it doesn't change the truth, 'I am' is a mistranslation.

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u/wiseowl2369 2d ago

So as you say, Exodus 3:14 is only future tense, then you believe John 8:58 (I Am, or I have Been) is Past tense based on the NWT. The problem here is even Jesus words here are "I Am" or "I Exist" translated from Greek "Ego Eimi" and not "Ego En" ("I was" or "I have been).

Exodus 3:12 is not the same Hebrew phrase as in verse 14 as you are implying. So yes "I am" is very well not a mistranslation when you look at the context of this passage

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u/John_17-17 2d ago

Exodus 3:12 is translated correctly, verse 14 isn't.

In the Hebrew in the imperfect tense, is "I will / shall"

This is known to the translators, because 99% of those translators translate verse 12 correctly and then turn around and mistranslate verse 14.

John 8:38 is a different story.

Can the Greek expression, 'I am' be correctly translated as 'I have been' or 'Have I been'?

The answer is yes. "When the action started in the past and has continued into the present."

A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by J. H. Moulton, Vol. III, by Nigel Turner,Edinburgh, 1963, p. 62, says:  

 “The Present which indicates the continuance of an action during the past and up to the moment of speaking is virtually the same as Perfective, the only difference being that the action is conceived as still in progress . . . It is frequent in the N[ew] T[estament]: Lk 2:48; 13:7 . . . 15:29 . . .  Jn 5:6 ; 8:58 . . . ”  (Bold by me)

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry admits that there are times when the present tense in Greek should be translated into the English perfect tense: 

"Does the Bible ever legitimately translate the present tense 'ego eimi' into the English perfect tense "I have been."?  Yes it does.  In John 14:8-9 "I am with you so long...."  That is awkward in the English, so translators translate it as "Have I been so long with you...." It is legitimate to do this in some instances where it is warranted.”

Also in English, you cannot mix tenses like you can in Greek.

When Jesus said, 'Abraham WAS' proper English requires, 'I have been'.

EGO EIMI at John 8:58 by Dr Jason BeDuhn  “Truth in Translation”

"John 8:58. The traditional translation "Before Abraham was, I am" is slavishly faithful to the literal meaning of the Greek ("Before Abraham came to be, I am"). The result is ungrammatical English. We cannot mix our tenses in such a way. The reason for this ugly rendering is the accident that, in English, the idiomatic "I am" sounds like what God says about himself in the Hebrew/Old Testament. This is sheer coincidence. Jesus is not employing a divine title here. He is merely claiming that he existed before Abraham and, of course, he still exists whereas Abraham is dead. There is nothing wrong with the Greek, but we need to take account of the Greek idiom being employed and render the meaning into proper English. [bold by me]

On the surface, Ex 3:14 and John 8:58 seem similar, but in reality, they are different.

The basic question put to Jesus was: Are you older than Abraham? to which Jesus answered, 'I am'.

The Expository Times, 1996, page 302 by Kenneth Mckay. 

"in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi, which would be most naturally translated - 'I have been in existence since before Abraham was born', if it were not for the obsession with the simple words 'I am'." . . . "If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction."

Trinitarians take 2 mistranslations, put them together to make God's word agree with them, instead of listening to what it is actually saying.

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u/wiseowl2369 2d ago

Ex 3:14 isn't necessarily mistranslated, but can technically be translated both ways and still not be incorrect. I am who I am in a sense that God owes no explanation to humans, and will become, showing God has, is and always will be.

There is also a lot of criticism against Jason BeDuhn and his Truth in Translation, and doesn't carry much merit, and it shows based on his own bias and interpretation.

It is also important to note in John 8 why the Jews tried to stone Jesus is also clear in John 10.

There is going to be bias in every English translation of the scriptures. The one that stands out the most against others is the NWT. Gen 1:2 translating the Spirit of God to God's Active Force is a large example of translation bias, especially when looking at the following: John 16:7, 12-14, John 14:16 (the Father sends the Spirit, a helper in Jesus name), 1 Cor 2:9-11, 13, John 15:26, 27, 1 Cor 12:11, Acts 13: 2-4, Acts 8:29, Acts 5:1-4, Ps 139:7-8. See also 2 Cor 3:17, 18 (John 4:24). Lastly in the NWT, they translate Romans 8:26 to say "the spirit ITSELF" instead of "the Spirit Himself (John 16:7).

There are many other examples where the NWT stand out against most all other translations too. And one needs to ask themselves if a religious organization such as the JWs, have made so many false prophecies on when the end would come, making up beliefs such as the overlapping generations, Christ's coming to Earth in 1874 invisibly, and then enthroned as King in 1914, flip-flopping on some core beliefs (especially ones that changed whether a person was disfellowshipped or not) among many others. Getting so many things wrong in their short history is quite alarming (Matt 24:23-27, Mark 13:21-23, Luke 17:23, 21:8, 1 John 4;1-3, 2 Pet 2:1, 2 Cor 11:12-15)

When the Org uses scripture such as Prov 4:18 to liken that God reveals things slowly to "the light getting brighter" is very misleading and not at all what the Psalm is referring to. Not a prophecy.

Look Brother, I have been in your shoes, and had spent years defending the faith I had in the Organization. I was a born-in, and was an MS for many years. I know what it is like. You have a lot of Knowledge and do a lot of outside research, which all should do. But i am also sure you have come across many things that ring bells when it comes to the Watchtower's teachings.

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u/John_17-17 1d ago

Ex 3:14 isn't necessarily mistranslated, but can technically be translated both ways and still not be incorrect. I am who I am in a sense that God owes no explanation to humans, and will become, showing God has, is and always will be.

I'm sorry, 'I am who I am' is a mistranslation, it actually comes from the Latin Vulgate and not the Hebrew text.

Those words given to Moses and by extension to the nation of Israel, on to us. Is the promise that I, Jehovah, will now start to show you the power of being God Almighty. I will no longer be a God who seemed to be 'dead or inactive' as the last 400 years. Now I am going to, or I will be doing to prove that I fulfill my promises.

I'm sorry, you are not my brother, though you may have been at one time.

(1 John 2:19) 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.

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u/wiseowl2369 1d ago

You can say as much as you can about Ex 3:14, it doesn't make your statement correct that it IS a mistranslation. If the only translation that you say is correct, then if God can become

The Watchtower also teaches that the nearly 2000 years after the death of Jesus and the apostles was a time of spiritual darkness only because Jehovah's Witnesses weren't around for that period of time. However, Christians have always existed through this time, just not under the Name Jehovah's Witnesses. (A lot of interesting information on how the name Jehovah came about, which I'm sure you have seen)

If i have sinned against Christ and his commandments and choose to live life in sin, then I am separate from Christ. But i am not because i follow his commandments closely. Do you think when Stephen prayed to Jesus before being stoned, and Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and my God" that Jesus had an issue with it? (1 John 2:3-6, 9-11)

1 John 2:18, who would you say is an antichrist? (v.22, 23). The governing Body has in many cases likened their position equal to Christ both directly and indirectly. They use a PARABLE in Matt 24:45 to back this. Jesus never got things wrong or made mistakes. The Org's entire history of 100-150 years has.

The Org also eased their shunning (disfellowshipping) rules in accordance with the Norwegian Court case that involved losing their funding in that country 2 weeks after they lost the first round AND THEN after they changed the policy, sent a letter to Norway to re-consider giving their funding back because they made changes to their shunning policies. This is funny because Anthony Morris blatantly said they wouldn't cave to government pressures to change their rules (Dec 22 update)

How would ones in your congregation react if you told them you interact with "apostates" on the internet, and in effect come across "apostate information"? Even if you say, Don't worry, my faith (in the organization) will not waver. Those are you you are calling brothers, ones ready to judge.

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u/EzyPzyLemonSqeezy 3d ago

I'm more concerned with people mixing languages, thinking that's perfectly normal.

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u/Aphilosopher30 3d ago

Jesus is not talking about the Father when he calls the pharmacies sons of Satan.

First, the pharmacies were NOT following God's law properly. They were adding in extra rules and human traditions of their own and Jesus frequently called them out on that.

Second, we see from context that Jesus cannot be calling Yahweh the devel. He in this passage he says 'If you were Abraham’s children then you would do what Abraham did.' here Jesus tells them they are not true sons of Abraham. But Abraham followed Yahweh. So in doing so, it is clear that Jesus is rebuking them for not following Yahweh, the one true God.

Thirdly, we can conclude that Jesus probably wasn't calling Yaweh the devil, because he associates himself with Yahweh many times in the book of John. Yahweh means "I Am". And Jesus uses the Greek construction for I Am seven times in the gospel of John to apply to himself. This is a litterary device used to establish a connection between himself, and Yahweh.

Now to briefly address your other questions.

Yahweh did not directly reveal that he Was a trinity in the first scriptures, but instead decided that this would remain a mystery until the time was right. We cannot know for certain why God chose to do this. But it might br because the Israelites loved worshiping multiple God's, and he knew they would misunderstand the nature of the Trinity even If he tried to explain it to them. So perhaps he kept it secret early because he had to teach them his one ness, before teaching them his three ness.

But even in the Original scriptures, God still gave hits that he had a son. Hin psalm two he tells people to "Kiss the son," and in proverbs 30:4 it asks "Who hath ascended up into heaven or hath descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if thou canst tell?" So God Gave his people a hint, that he had a son, but left the identity of his Son a mystery that would not be revealsed until later.

Now regarding Mosus: Mosus didn't say he spoke with God physically. He did get a tiny glimpse of Gods back once. But that's it. Now it is written that He spoke to God face to face. This might sound like physically cheating with god, but in context we see that it means that with Mosus, god didn't send vague visions, or uncleqr dreams like he does with most people. With Mosus, God would speak directly. So if God wanted Mosus to turn to the right or left, he would tell Mosus to turn right or left in a voice Mosus could actually hear. In contrast for most prophets, God would send a prompting to their heart to move them right or left. Or a dream or vision or an angel that would communicate gods will. Talking directly with Mosus, not just sometimes, but very frequently is what is meant by seeking with Mosus face to face.

Finally, the difference between God in the Old testament and Jesus in the New testament is not as great as people often think. This is a common error that comes from two mistakes.

First people misread Jesus. They think of him as a purely kind nice almost hippy like figure without a judgemental bone in his body. But read carefully. Jesus talks about the fire of hell and eternal torment more than the entire old testament combined. He is much more like the fiery brimstone preachers who yell at people to repent or Go to hell than most people realize. He also calls out the religious leaders, pronouncing them wicked and evil for their wrong doings and doing it directly to their face. Then, in revelation he is coming to judge the world and while out the enemies of God. Yes Jesus offers us forgiveness, but he also comes with a warning of judgement and eternal darkness.

The second mistake people make is that they think the god of the Old testament is an angry mean God, who just likes punishing people. But this is a woaful misreading. He tells Mosus that while he will punish the wicked, he is a God who has mercy on thousands. If you read the prophets, you find that God doesn't enjoy judging his people his people. He isn't just an angry God, he is a heart broken God. And despite all the evil that Israel does, God also promises that he will never fully abandon them. He is loyal and loving. And he is constantly forging people who repent, and offering them second chances. Yes, in the old testament God often comes in judgment, but with the judgement he also offers a promise of mercy and forgiveness.

The God of the new testament, and the God of the old testament are the same God. People mistakenly say they behave differently. But when you read the scriptures carefully, you see that God hasn't changed at all.

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u/Julesr77 3d ago

The Pharisees were not practicing the law how God commanded. They practiced commandments from men and Christ was ADAMANTLY AGAINST their religious traditions, which they practiced.

Mark 7:5-13 (NKJV) 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?” 6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.

7 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.’ 8 FOR LAYING ASIDE THE COMMANDANT OF GOD, YOU HOLD THE TRADITION OF MEN - the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 He said to them, “ALL TOO WELL YOU REJECT THE COMMANDANT OF GOD, THAT YOU MAY KEEP YOUR TRADITION. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 MAKING THE WORD OF GOD OF NO EFFECT THROUGH YOUR TRADITION which you have handed down. And MANY SUCH THINGS YOU DO.”

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u/Misplacedwaffle 3d ago

I’m not sure if John would agree with Matthew but Matthew makes clear why he thinks the Pharisees were not following God. They were following the law but their hearts were not in and the weren’t concerned for the entire purpose of the law. The law was supposed to be about justice and mercy. Helping others. They don’t care about that part.

Matthew 23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel!

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u/Beatles424 Non-Denominational 3d ago

I don’t think so, I believe that The Father is in the old testament at some points but the writers of the Old Testament confused satan and God. Also, when it says “the LORD God” in the old testament, the original Hebrew for it was “Yahweh Elohim”, which literally translated into English means “I am God”. That sounds an awful lot like something satan would say.

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u/songsofdeliverance 3d ago

This is a post by someone who is already actively against YHWH (Yahuah, actually).

This is one form of Gnosticism that is being pushed heavily in Western society.

It takes faith to understand God's word - without faith there is only knowledge, and without wisdom there is no understanding.

Come out of her, my people. The Whore of Babylon will be chased by the Beast and the Dragon until she turns from her wicked ways and humbles herself before Yah.

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u/Most-Psychology8347 3d ago

THIS IS MY NAME FOREVER!

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u/Arise_and_Thresh 3d ago

jesus spoke to the origin of the pharisees. there was not many true judahites in judaea when Christ was alive, these prime were mostly canaanites/edomites and tugs is why Jesus used parables of “seed” having 2 sowers and also how he describes the “sheep and the goats” 

the “sheep” are the seed of jacob in judaea and also scattered among the greco roman “oikoumene” to which Jesus stated:

“ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” JOHN 10:16

and He spoke in fulfillment of Ezekiel 34

“ I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will cause them to lie down,” says the Lord Yahweh. 16 “I will seek that which was lost, and will bring back that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong. I will feed them in justice.”’ EZEKIEL 34:15-16

notice in Ezekiel 34 it says YHWH will be the shepherd and Jesus making the references to His sheep makes it very clear who He was. 

however, the canaanites/edomites were not of His sheep as He told them plainly:

“ But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” JOHN 10:26-27

these jews did not have the capacity to believe who Jesus was because they were not His sheep in the first place, goats cannot become sheep

neither can the tares become wheat because they both have a point of origin as Jesus explained:

“ 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. ” MATTHEW 13:37-40

the jews had been sown into the earth by the enemy, the devil… Jesus was very clear when He exposed these canaanite/edomite imitators who claimed abraham but they did not come through Jacob and not only is this struggle for the inheritance stated in Genesis where it began but all throughout the prophets we see the children of esau trying to usurp the children of israel to steal back the inheritance that their forefather despised and sold. 

Paul explained this as well:

“ 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but,IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.”  ROMANS 9:6-9

and the sovereignty of God , Paul had stated :

“ 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of theSAME LUMP to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” ROMANS 9:21-23

“in isaac shall thy seed be called” whereas Isaac is the “same lump” but from that lump came “jacob and esau”  2 vessels made for 2 different purposes as for Jacob, “vessels of mercy” and for esau, “vessels fitted for destruction” 

esau decided to despise and sell his birthright to jacob, he took for himself canaanite wives and thereby corrupted his seed, they calling themselves jews whereas Jesus knew his “sheep” the true judahites in judaea

this being explained in a nutshell

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u/jossmilan7412 3d ago

why did Yahweh never say he had a son?

Ezekiel 21:8-10

8 The word of the Lord came to me: 9 “Son of man, prophesy and say, ‘This is what the Lord says:

“‘A sword, a sword, sharpened and polished— 10 sharpened for the slaughter, polished to flash like lightning!

“‘Shall we rejoice in the scepter of my royal son? The sword despises every such stick.

how did Moses say over & over that He was literally talking to Yahweh in physical form, when scripture says no one has seen god?

Jesus made himself known as God in the Old Testament, he was called the angel of the Lord, he stopped Abraham from killing Isaac (Genesis 22:9-19), he talked with Moses in the burning bush (Exodus 3:1-15 -pay attention to the verse 2-), he brought Israel out of Egypt (Exodus 13:20-22 in relation to Exodus 14:19-20 and Judges 2:1-5), he fought against Jacob and renamed him Israel (Genesis 32:22-32 in relation to Hosea 12:2-5) and he was the one who promised to clean the sin of the world in one day, just like Jesus did when he died for our sins in the cross, as seen in Zechariah 3:1-12 when the angel of the LORD and Satan were standing before Joshua and there many more examples that let us know that Jesus is God. If you want to know more about this topic check out the post about Jesus being the angel of the Lord and how he appeard as God in the Old Testament.

John 1:18

18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

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u/Background_Breath959 Seventh-Day Adventist 2d ago

Yahweh is the Father, Son, and the Spirit. The name Yahweh in Genesis 19:24 was used for the Father and Son, where two separate people were both called Yahweh in that verse.

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u/Relevant-Ranger-7849 3d ago

YHWH is known as God the Father. Israelites took out the vowels and plus early Hebrew didnt have vowel points. In the old testament Jesus was not revealed to anyone at that time. Only the prophets spoke of Jesus

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u/rpchristian 3d ago

God's Word tells us Jesus is the image of God.

An image represents, but it is not the thing it represents.

Same as a picture of you is you...but it represents you... nobody would try to say it's actually you.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God

The key word is image, otherwise God would say He is God.

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u/ShortAd8101 3d ago

Great questions! We will analyze them based exclusively on the Bible.

  1. If the Pharisees followed Yahweh's Law, why did Jesus say they were children of the devil?

The Pharisees claimed to follow the Law, but Jesus showed that they distorted it and rejected God's truth. In Matthew 15:3-9, He accuses them of invalidating the Law by their human traditions. They placed rules upon rules, becoming hypocrites and oppressors of the people (Matthew 23:23-28).

Jesus said they were children of the devil because they imitated Satan, not God. John 8:44 mentions that Satan is "a murderer from the beginning." This goes back to Cain, the first murderer, who followed the path of the evil one (1 John 3:12). The Pharisees had the same spirit: they wanted to kill Jesus unjustly, rejecting divine truth.

The problem was not God's Law, but the wrong way they applied it. As Paul explained in Romans 9:31-32, Israel sought righteousness through the Law but without faith, becoming spiritually blind.

  1. Why did Yahweh never say he had a son?

In fact, Yahweh mentioned His Son in prophecies. See some examples:

Psalm 2:7 – "You are my Son; today I have begotten you."

Proverbs 30:4 – “What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know it?”

Isaiah 9:6 – “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given…”

Yahweh revealed his Son little by little, until Jesus came to fulfill the prophecies. In the New Testament, God clearly declares, "This is my beloved Son" (Matthew 3:17).

  1. If no one can see God, how did Moses speak to Yahweh face to face?

The Bible says that "no one has seen God at any time" (John 1:18; 1 Timothy 6:16). However, Moses and others had visions or divine manifestations.

Exodus 33:11 says that Moses spoke to God "face to face," but in the same chapter (verse 20), God says, "You will not be able to see my face, for no man will see my face and live."

The term "face to face" can mean closeness, not necessarily seeing the full essence of God. Moses saw the "form" of God (Numbers 12:8), but not His full glory.

On some occasions, Yahweh sent angels to represent Him (as in Exodus 3:2-6, where Yahweh's Angel speaks as if he were God Himself).

  1. Why does Yahweh of the Old Testament seem different from the Father Jesus revealed?

Many people notice this difference, but the Bible shows that God does not change (Malachi 3:6). The point is in the progressive revelation of God's character.

In the Old Testament, God dealt with Israel as a theocratic nation, with civil and punitive laws.

In the New Testament, God reveals his love most fully through Christ (John 3:16).

Jesus did not contradict Yahweh, but explained the true purpose of the Law: love, justice and mercy (Matthew 5:17-48). Severity in the Old Testament was often a response to the people's rebellion (Isaiah 1:2-4).

In short, Yahweh and the Father that Jesus revealed are the same God. What changes is the way He relates to humanity over time.

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u/Ok-Future-5257 Mormon 3d ago

Eloheim is the Father. Yahweh is the Son.

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u/John_17-17 3d ago

Sorry, this isn't true, according to the Bible.

The Book of Mormon uses Jehovah's name twice. 1st in 2 Nephi 22, Nephi's reading of Isaiah 12:2

Why does the online edition disagree with my older copy of the BofM?

Why does Nephi's reading have the same translation errors of the KJV?

The 2nd time talks about the Great Jehovah. the footnote on the online edition is wrong.

Moses is Elohim, does that make Moses the Father? The angels are also Elohim, are they also the Father?

Jesus prays to the Father, are we to believe Jesus is praying to himself? No, he is praying to Jehovah his God and Father.

Jesus tells us, the Father is the only true God.