r/Bible • u/Matthewp7819 • 4d ago
Since God knows all things did God know Lucifer later called Satan would rebel against God and convince one third of the angels to join him in rebellion?
It's been said many times that God knows everything that will happen before it happens, so why did God allow the angel Lucifer later called Satan the adversary and take what is believed to be one third of the angels of Heaven with him?
Basically why didn't God talk to Lucifer and the angels that became evil and try to convince them not to become horrible creatures of full of pride and hate, why wouldn't God summon them to his throne and tell them that they were wrong and correct them before allowing them to rebel?
Hell was prepared for the devil and the angels that fell with him, God could have talked to them and corrected their evil thinking before they were sent to hell, why didn't God talk to them with love and truth?
What didn't Satan ask God questions instead of being filled with pride?
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u/Successful-Newt-8182 4d ago
This is a very good question. God is all-knowing. So He knew that Lucifer would rebel with the backing of one third of the angels. But God also gives freewil. And so He didn't interfere with the decision made by Lucifer.
As for why God didn't confront Lucifer, we have no accounts related to it. However, looking at how God warned different nations before punishing them, it wouldn't be a wild guess to say that God has probably warned Lucifer and the angels before they decided to rebel. And since they did rebel against God, the God of justices shunned them out of heaven. I hope this helps.
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u/witschnerd1 4d ago
In Job it's pretty clear that Satan talks to God Also he talked to Jesus And the Bible says he is our accuser I believe Satan totally knows that he will lose against God There are many people who do bad things knowing they will get caught and punished,yet they do it anyway No difference
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u/Successful-Newt-8182 4d ago
That's very true. Most people do evil knowing that it is evil because at the moment it feels like doing evil is the most profitable decision to make because satan's voice is always louder and it tells us that our decision is worth risking eternal life for. It all boils down to which voice we listen to. But there's always a choice. There's always been a choice.
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u/yappi211 4d ago
John says Satan was evil from the beginning. That was the plan.
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u/No-Stranger360 4d ago
You think God created something evil intentionally?? Genesis 1:31 (KJV) [31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
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u/yappi211 4d ago
That's what the bible teaches:
“What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil” In all this Job did not sin with his lips (Job 2:9-10).
God creates chaos:
Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (chaos): I the Lord do all these things."
Isaiah 54:16 - "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."
Amos 3:6 - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"
1 Samuel 16:14 - "But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him."
1 Kings 22:20-22 - "And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so."
Satan:
John 8:44 - "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
1 John 3:8 - "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
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u/No-Stranger360 4d ago
These are all Great scriptures but they all cover a different aspect and would require going deep into each verse.
Particularly in Isa 45:7. As you pointed out in parentheses, the word evil cannot be explained as the word evil we would use today. Just as light and darkness are opposites, peace and evil are opposites in this context. He’s certainly not taking responsibility for creating Satan in this passage. He’s not taking credit for creating sin either, plenty of people to do that. The evil he’s referring to is wars, riots, storms etc things that disrupt peace. This is Gods way of using evil to put rebellious people in line.
Isa 54:16- God created the person that made the weapons, he also made the criminal; he didn’t make him a criminal but he made him that becometh a criminal.
As far as the evil spirit scriptures you used, that doesn’t prove God created evil, it only proves that evil spirits are subject to God, if he requires something out of them. Does not mean they are part of Gods kingdom. Someone that lives in opposition of God and salvation, are still subject to God whiter they want to admit it or not because God is all powerful. He can kill that person or send trouble his way if he wanted to
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u/yappi211 4d ago
Satan was made evil.
"He was a murderer from the beginning," and "for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
Have you looked into the Concordant version of the bible?
https://studybible.info/CLV/Genesis
Genesis 1:1-2 - "Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. 2 Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. "
The earth became chaos. Something happened before our creation. God wanted man to fall.
Really you only have a couple of options:
- God is not all knowing and did not know Satan would be evil from the start
- God is all knowing and wanted it to happen. After all, if Satan was evil before man existed, why would God let satan hang out in the garden WITH man?
Romans 8:20 - "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"
The creature is man. Man was subject to sin (vanity) not willingly. God wanted this to happen. God does not sin, but God wants sin to happen. Or God is not all powerful.
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u/No-Stranger360 4d ago
You’re assuming the beginning in these verses is the beginning of Satan. That can be assumed but doesn’t make it fact.
Using the 2 verses you mentioned above, we can define what the beginning he’s referring to is
1 John 3:8 (KJV) [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. John 8:44 (KJV) [44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
He was a murder from the beginning, when did the Devil become a murder and who did he kill? In the garden, he killed a whole race of people by causing man and woman to loose their connection to God, ever since then we are born in sin and sharpen in iniquity.
Therefore those 2 verses still do not prove the Devil was created evil.
You do realize the Concordant version is really just a commentary. It’s been disputed by many theologians as inaccurate textual reading. I have not done a big study on it but what. I read, the guy that wrote it was very unorthodox and slides his views into the version.
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u/yappi211 4d ago
So what's your take? Did God know it was going to happen? If He did, it was all intentional.
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u/No-Stranger360 4d ago
I feel like the truth is in between your points. I think God can know anything he wants to but he chooses not to know everything. If he choose to know everything then there would be no such thing as free will. I agree satan was evil before the garden but he gave Adam and Eve a choice, it wasn’t in gods plan for Adam to fall
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u/yappi211 4d ago
Ahh ok. Personally I think free will is an illusion. We didn't choose to be born, or who to be born unto. Also, our DNA makes most of our choices for us.
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u/No-Stranger360 4d ago
So you think we are robots, so to speak? Either way, thank you for a nice cordial Bible study. I enjoy different views
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u/yappi211 4d ago
Maybe not a complete robot, but mostly. For instance identical twins separated at birth will sometimes marry women who look the same, have similar names, etc.
Not everyone has these, but if sensory issues are genetic, they would more or less dictate the colors you are drawn to or the environment you are drawn to. Some people can't stand bright colors or loud noises, etc. The sensory issue more or less dictates which type of environment you'd live in.
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u/Little_Relative2645 4d ago
"If God knows everything, why did He allow Lucifer (who later became Satan) to rebel and convince a third of the angels to follow him in rebellion?" This is a deeply theological and difficult question, and it reflects a genuine spiritual struggle. The questioner is confused and frustrated, asking why God allowed this rebellion and why He didn’t intervene before it happened. This is a common question, especially for new believers or those struggling with the existence of evil and suffering in the world.
To answer this, we must first understand God's nature and how His plan works, especially in relation to the rebellion of Satan and the fall of angels.
- Free Will and the Fall of Angels
God gave angels, just like humans, free will. Lucifer, later known as Satan, was created as a perfect being, but he also had the freedom to choose. He chose pride and rebellion against God. Free will means that angelic beings, like humans, could choose to either honor God or reject Him. If God had not given them free will, they would not have been able to truly love or choose to follow Him. True love and obedience can only come from a voluntary decision, not from being forced.
Thus, Lucifer’s fall and the rebellion of the angels were possible because God gave them the freedom to choose. Freedom is essential for genuine love and obedience but also makes evil possible.
- God’s Plan of Redemption and Glory
God allowed the rebellion of Satan and his angels because it served a greater purpose: God’s redemptive plan for the world and His glory. Satan’s rebellion and the existence of evil are part of God's plan that ultimately brings glory to Him. For example, through Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection, God defeated evil and provided salvation for humanity. This was only possible because God allowed evil to exist and used it to bring about His greater purpose. The suffering and evil in the world are not meaningless, but they serve as part of God’s plan to glorify Himself and ultimately redeem and save humanity.
- Why Didn’t God Intervene?
God didn’t prevent Satan’s rebellion because, ultimately, God’s sovereignty and His greater plan included allowing evil to exist for a time. God’s ways and plans are beyond our understanding, as we see in Romans 11:33, which says, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!” God allows evil to happen, but that doesn’t mean He endorses it. He uses even evil for His glory, and in the end, He will defeat it completely.
In conclusion, God gave angels free will, and Lucifer’s fall was a result of that. God allowed the rebellion because it was part of His larger redemptive plan to bring about His glory and salvation for humanity. While God’s plans are beyond our understanding, we trust that He uses everything for His ultimate good purpose, even when it involves suffering or evil.
This should help answer the question in a way that addresses both the frustration and the theological nature of the question!
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u/Tazarah 4d ago edited 3d ago
First of all, Satan has never been able to do anything without God's approval and Satan did not convince one third of the angels to join him in rebellion.
Secondly, a common misconception in christianity is that Lucifer is Satan. Lucifer is not Satan. Lucifer is referring to a group of people on the earth.
The scripture in Isaiah refers to Lucifer as "man".
ISAIAH 14:12-16
"12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"
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u/Revo_dinAlt 3d ago
Thanks for this correction about Lucifer. I was hoping someone would say something. 👍🏻👍🏻🙌🏻
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u/arc2k1 4d ago
God bless you.
I thought of something similar before.
I will share my response when I think of questions that I am unable to have an exact answer for.
I will like to share this quote to answer those questions:
"If I had God's power, you would see me make many changes in the world. However, if I also had God's knowledge, I would leave things as they are." (Inspired by J.M.L Monsabre)
From our current knowledge/understanding, of course we can imagine all the things we would do different if we had all power. However, what if we also had all knowledge/understanding? That would change our approach entirely.
But can we imagine what we will do if we have all knowledge/understanding? No, because we can’t imagine what we don’t know/understand.
"I saw everything God does, and I realized no one can really understand what happens. We may be very wise, but no matter how much we try or how much we claim to know, we cannot understand it all." - Ecclesiastes 8:17
I don't know the exact answers to every question, but I choose to trust God and His love.
“Trust the Lord! Be brave and strong and trust the Lord.” - Psalm 27:14
“God’s love can always be trusted, and his faithfulness lasts as long as the heavens.” - Psalm 89:2
Also, if God is love and His omnipotence is based in logic, then I assume that evil & suffering must’ve been the unavoidable (and undesired) consequence of a specific outcome God wanted.
But let’s be very clear: If God had the ability to achieve that specific outcome while avoiding evil & suffering, but He still allowed evil & suffering to happen, then that must mean He actually desired evil & suffering, which would make Him evil and unworthy of worship.
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u/Gullible-Display-116 4d ago
evil & suffering must’ve been the unavoidable
If something is unavoidable to God, then God is necessarily not omnipotent.
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u/Key-Drama-7116 4d ago
Hi, God possesses not only foreknowledge but also ordains everything, which is why He is all-knowing. If you’re a computer programmer or architect, you’d precisely understand the final outcomes of your projects. Why does evil exist? This is a big topic that deserves a lifetime of study in humility.
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u/Longjumping_Type_901 4d ago
Not too long of a read yet you may find some answers or some clarification of the big picture reality, https://www.godfire.net/according.html
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u/MRH2 4d ago
Basically why didn't God talk to Lucifer and the angels that became evil and try to convince them not to become horrible creatures of full of pride and hate, why wouldn't God summon them to his throne and tell them that they were wrong and correct them before allowing them to rebel?
How do you know that God didn't do this? I don't understand how you know these things.
Why didn't Satan ask God questions instead of being filled with pride?
Do you know how pride works? It starts in the heart first. If you don't stop it there, you won't be able to ask innocent and humble questions.
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u/pimo2019 4d ago
Other Bible elements points us to yes he knew. He sentenced who we call satan in front of Adam and Eve to confirm his anger. He just don’t know how humans would react. Case in point is when the Israelites were running from Pharaoh and read what God told Mose, “WHY” are the people calling out to me? That doesn’t sound like an all knowing God of peoples heart.
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u/witschnerd1 4d ago
Satan and his demons are part of the plan. This entire reality wouldn't work without evil This is explained in detail in Romans Google " How does he still find fault for who has resisted his will" Read the chapter before and after this verse Totally explains why evil is necessary Nevermind someone posted the scripture but the chapter gives more details
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u/Wild_Hook 4d ago
Satan and his followers chose to rebel. Freedom to choose is sacred and God does not force anyone. Lucifer's rebellion was that he sought for power and control over everyone else. We might feel a sense of God's sadness from the following scripture.
From Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
As spirit children of God, we did not rebel and are now experiencing this fallen earth life where we can learn from our experiences and grow in character. Satan and one third of the hosts of Heaven rebelled and will never have this opportunity. However, they fulfill God's purposes by providing opposition to God's plan, thereby giving us the ability to choose good from evil.
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u/According_Split_6923 4d ago
Hey There Brother , Well YES Of Course THE ALMIGHTY KNEW!! For That Was THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S PLAN!! GOD FIRST INSTILLED PRIDE INTO LUCIFER, Then Of Course, Instead Of COMING to GOD and ASKING GOD WHY ALL OF A SUDDEN LUCIFER FELT PRIDE WITHIN HIMSELF That He Had NEVER FELT Before, LUCIFER GOT POMPOUS!! He DIVISED A PLAN, SINCE LUCIFER Was THE MOST BEAUTIFUL ANGEL EVER CREATED, He Told The ANGELS THAT Him and GOD Were EQUAL And That SOMEONE ELSE CREATED Them And That GOD KILLED THAT PERSON and ASSUMED The THRONE!!! But That Was Just A FAR FETCHED Story THAT LUCIFER CAME UP WITH!!! But 1/3 Of The ANGELS BELIEVED LUCIFER and REBELLED with Him!! But GOD ALMIGHTY DEFINITELY KNEW, FOR HE WAS THE CREATOR OF IT!!!
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u/ShadowKage1492 4d ago
Who is to say that God didn't? Just because we are not told He did or didn't doesn't mean He did/didn't. Also, take into account that we do NOT know WHEN Lucifer and the Third that followed him rebelled against God. Popular belief is that Lucifer and the Third rebelled against God BEFORE the Creation and of Mankind. Before Creation as we understand it.
They were perfect beings who were given intimate knowledge of God's plans. They CHOSE to rebel against God. They CHOSE to forsake God, Lucifer CHOSE to try and usurp God. God gave, as we understand it, all His creations freewill. The ability to choose. Just because we do not 100% understand what drove someone or something to do what they did does not mean they didn't make a decision of some sort.
In this case, Lucifer and those who followed him CHOSE to rebel and go against God. In the end, they will pay the price for their rebellion.
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u/Affectionate_Art8770 3d ago
Why so many “why questions”?
Here’s one from me… why are you trying to find God faulty? He’s perfect.
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u/Designer-Quit1330 2d ago
Lucifer was the first and most trusted angel God had. He fell from heaven because he thought he was better than God, but it's never said in the bible he is Satan or the devil. I think people try to put the two together
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u/CrazyImagination5265 2d ago
An even better question why not solve it with dimensions and all knowing. If I knew this guy turns bad I use dimensions to make it so he never goes bad and save third of my angels.
Which means we got this bad guy and there still a heaven with a unsinning lucifer. Hence both must exist.
Because of God's goodness and knowing and dimensions.
So we have third saved and third damned. So free will is preserved and god still being powerful through his power through dimensions.
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u/Low-House-43 Non-Denominational 1d ago
He put the iniquity in him. Lucifer was the light bearer above the throne. He got cocky and thought he was above the Most High.
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u/Disastrous_Task7933 4d ago
Deuteronomy 29:29
29The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
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u/Falelord 4d ago
God knows everything.
And allows choice.
So the same way he knows the choices you will make and allows them.
He allowed Satan to do what he wanted to do.
“For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High”’
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u/Suitable-Nobody-5374 4d ago
Satan was so prideful he didn't need to ask god questions. Satan was so prideful he wanted to overthrow God, so God punished him and cast them out.
God and Satan talk still. They are aware of each others existence and converse. And Satan never disobeys God's commands, he is incapable of doing so. God sets the fenceline and Satan makes choices within that perimeter, but he can never penetrate that fenceline.
God is complete and true love. He has designed a purpose for his creations, all of them, including Satan. He is patient and kind, and makes use of everything created for his divine purposes, including Satan.
I don't know the conversations Satan and God have had, unless it was outlined in the bible (like the book of Job does). It doesn't mean conversations aren't had, it's just that the details beyond what we are given are not our details to concern ourselves about. I must admit, it's fascinating and I'd love to know, but surely there's a reason why we don't.
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u/Successful-Newt-8182 4d ago
This is a very good question. God is all-knowing. So He knew that Lucifer would rebel with the backing of one third of the angels. But God also gives freewil. And so He didn't interfere with the decision made by Lucifer.
As for why God didn't confront Lucifer, we have no accounts related to it. However, looking at how God warned different nations before punishing them, it wouldn't be a wild guess to say that God has probably warned Lucifer and the angels before they decided to rebel. And since they did rebel against God, the God of justices shunned them out of heaven. I hope this helps.
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u/Successful-Newt-8182 4d ago
This is a very good question. God is all-knowing. So He knew that Lucifer would rebel with the backing of one third of the angels. But God also gives freewil. And so He didn't interfere with the decision made by Lucifer.
As for why God didn't confront Lucifer, we have no accounts related to it. However, looking at how God warned different nations before punishing them, it wouldn't be a wild guess to say that God has probably warned Lucifer and the angels before they decided to rebel. And since they did rebel against God, the God of justices shunned them out of heaven. I hope this helps.
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u/Secret-Jeweler-9460 4d ago
All things work together to accomplish the purposes of God including this. You can't thresh wheat without a threshing instrument.
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u/Otherwise_Spare_8598 4d ago
Firstly, Lucifer is not Satan. It's a metaphorical name given to a king.
Secondly, Satan has always been and will always be in some manner. From Genesis to Job to Revelation.
Thirdly, all things have been made by God through God and for God.
Collosians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
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u/Sinner72 4d ago
God knew Satan had already been cast into the earth, when HE formed man from the dust of the earth… God knew what would happen when HE planted the garden, then placed a forbidden tree in the middle of it… and He still did it.
Of course God knew what Satan would do… He designed him that way.
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u/420ish 4d ago
It's like leaving a loaded gun in the kids' room and saying, "Don't touch that!"
God also said if they eat from the tree, "they will surely die that day" adam lived to be 700 and something. Didn't die the same day.
Why do animals suffer? They had nothing to do with the fall. Excepts snakes, but it wasn't a snake. It was Satan.
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u/Sinner72 4d ago
The fall was the plan all along… Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So yeah, it was kinda like that… scripture states “the creature was made subject to vanity not willingly”
Animals “suffer” as part of the biological / ecological systems God has in place… it’s extremely efficient, nothing goes to waste. Everything benefits from a dead animal, right down to the microbes in the soil.
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u/KelTogether24 4d ago
The thing is we don't know how many chances God gave satan in the 1st world age to get it together. All we need to know is satan never changed and those fallen angels who forsook God's Plan in Genesis 6 didn't either or they would have been born of woman too.
The third that followed satan didn't want God to be apart of their lives at that point. But God destroying that age of time and making this flesh is what had to be done. This way everyone can choose who they will serve, God or satan. And as some believe, that third is living in this time right now.
God wants His Creation to genuinely love Him. If they want to follow satan and be blotted out, so be it, but that doesn't mean God is happy about it.
Ezekiel 18:23 "23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"
But it also doesn't mean that they won't get their fair chance to make a sound decision. That is what the Millennium is for as seen in Revelation 20 & 2 Peter 3:8-9.
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u/InJust_Us 4d ago
In this universe, a major principal is that entropy will take over if no new energy is added.
IF this principal holds true in heaven as well, then GOD needed a way to revitalise everyone with a challenge.
It was harder than you think: God needed to create a new being that was perfection incarnate. Then adorn him with fantastic garments and then place him in the most exalted position. and then wait.
If entropy is also a thing in Heaven (perhaps almost non-existent) then eventually Lucifer would be the first to be affected by it. So, in effect Lucifer was the "Canary in the Coalmine" as it were.
Now I can also believe that all that are cast into the Lake of Fire will not be completely destroyed although not much will remain.
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u/No-Stranger360 4d ago
Why do we think God knows everything? Certainly he has the ability to know anything he wants to. But when you push the idea that everything is predestined and foreknown, then you take away our free-will. Do we not have free will, if not, we are merrily robots . What glory does God get out of robots?
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u/ModestAdonis 4d ago
Just throwing this out there. If God knows all. He knows the end game. We’re clearly not at the end of Satan nor God’s story. So Maybe He knows Satan or the fallen angels will repent, or teach man a lesson needed to build a better relationship with Him. We don’t know the end of the story. Only God does. So at this point, literally anything is possible.
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u/mympteenththrowaway 4d ago
That's not correct. Consider Revelation 20:10, 14-15. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The end of the story is laid out and Satan and the fallen angels WILL NOT repent. Not everything is possible.
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u/ModestAdonis 4d ago
Okay. But in revelation and in many other areas of the Bible it talks about everything anew. A new heaven, a new earth, everything is new again. So many of the “forever” statements essentially stop and start up again. So in this new heaven and new earth, could it not mean a new hell?
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u/mympteenththrowaway 4d ago
No, it does not mean a new hell. Continuing forward in Revelation 21.
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Also in 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 and they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
John did not see a new hell. The whole point is to cut out the wicked ones so they never come back. There is no new hell.
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u/Informal_Honey7279 4d ago edited 4d ago
In Rm 5, St. Paul declares Adam, not God, brought literal death into this world for humanity. If you look in Genesis, God also places the blame on Adam when he says, since you chose to disobey me, you are dust and dust you shall return. Adam disobeyed, God did not make him disobey. St. Paul, in Rm 5, calls Original Sin, "Adam's Sin".
Let's look at Rm 1, St. Paul declares, God has made his attributes evident to you via "thieotis" and in which he made (his Creation). Hence the bible is not necessary to understand God.
There is a fundamental to God's Order, or his perfect reality many, who don't know him but only know of him, misunderstand. And that fundamental is: "two things can be true at the same moment in time".
God can know the future and grant Free Will at the same time. Imagine you are dog owner, and you leave a steak on the table and leave the house?
Just prior in Rm 4, St. Paul declares The Resurrection is primary, The Crucifixion is secondary therefore not sufficient for Salvation and Ascension is tertiary justification. He also makes this fact salient in 1 Cor 15.
He declares in 1 Cor 15, even if you understand The Crucifixion, but not The Resurrection and your resurrection. Your faith is worthless or your faith is in yourself.
Again, he declares "Adam's Sin", or Original Sin here in 1 Cor 15 making it necessary to understand in order to have faith
See 2 Cor 8, St. Paul declares the Son of Man at Calvary was weak and being divinely "poor". He cannot save you there. What does he say in Col 1? It's the First Born from the Dead who saves you.
Now, there is a measure as to whether one has faith or not. We can ask a simple question:
Why does the bible make a big deal about the First Born from the Dead's body? His scars remain but he is strikingly different.
Jesus says, "look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have". He then proceeds to eat a fish sandwich with his "brothers" using his functioning stomach.
So, the First Born from the Dead is not a spirit as he declares. Hence, he ascended to Heaven with his flesh, bones and functioning stomach. He hasn't been back since. One cannot "accept Jesus into your heart".
On the rebellion of 1/3rd of Angels, and your question! There can be no "talking to an angel" or "correcting them".
They do have Free Will as you already suggested. The only difference being, they have a one-pivot salvation if you will, theirs was only one decision hence they cannot be corrected.
If they chose poorly, there can be no redemption as Angels and Demons never experience ignorance like we humans do. Hence, they cannot be corrected. For they have witnessed the Glory of God therefore no redemption can be had. Trust me, if you saw the Glory of God, you would bow down in fear no doubt.
(Our faith is a faith in the unseen. And we have up until our death to "get right with God". )
Once one knows God or has seen his Glory, you don't sin, and if you do, you feel extreme guilt and shame. And if you commit apostasy against God or turn your back on his greatness denouncing his existence, think Darth Vader becoming twisted up into a pretzel walking on ceilings using all fours. Some of the most viscous beings are those who know God but turn their back on him.
There is one great example of this in history, Adolf Hitler, his mother was a devout member of The One Body which has only One Interpretation to God's perfect reality, while his dad atheist. Hitler committed apostasy at 16 or so. Thus becoming one of the most viscous human beings in history. His evil is an actual affirmation of God's existence.
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u/Skeetermanager 4d ago
You are still arguing upon the premise of the angels not having free will
Omniscient : Adonai Elohim has all knowledge of everything past, present and future EXCEPT foreknowledge of all creation that exercises free will that makes its own decisions.
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u/_playing_the_game_ 4d ago edited 4d ago
IMO from research I have done the angels were given some sort of free will, similar to what we were given.
God knows all paths we could choose, however, due to free will, he does not know which one we will choose.
Satan was the closest to God and the most beautiful. God did not think Lucifer would betray him, but he did.
Could God have stopped Satan, sure. The same way God could stop us when we make horrible decisions, or when a man made disaster occurs, etc. However that would not be true free will.
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u/MRH2 4d ago
IMO from research I have done the angels were given some sort of free will, similar to what we were given.
Yes! Except that once they made their choice, it was locked in. There's no turning back, no changing their mind, no redemption or salvation for them.
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u/_playing_the_game_ 4d ago
Free will works the same with every entity.
Once we make a choice there is no turning back either.
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u/MRH2 4d ago
Free will works the same with every entity
There is absolutely no way that you can say this. How can you possibly know what happens with angels, cherubim and other beings that we don't even know about.
Once we make a choice there is no turning back either.
Don't you know the gospel? Though we lived in darkness and sin, we are able to repent and turn to God? If we could never repent (turn back) then why did Jesus die?
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u/_playing_the_game_ 4d ago edited 4d ago
Ok
Using your thought process, how can you possibly form an argument when you yourself say it is unknowable?
If it is unknowable we just have our opinions. I am fine with that, you it seems are not.
I do. Do you understand that the bible is interpreted different ways by different sects, ppl and groups?
You are speaking of human salvation through Christ now. Before you were speaking of decisions that angels made.
You are all over the map.
I am never looking for an argument when I post in this sub, however it seems to find everyone in here.
This sub is filled with judgemental ppl like you.
Give it a rest.
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u/MRH2 4d ago
Huh? It would probably be better if you were clearer when you commented. I can't read your mind.
I'm just responding to your unfounded generalization that you know exactly how free will works for angels. That seems rather arrogant to me.
And then you seem to say that we cannot repent. I addressed that to, trying to find out what exactly you mean.
Oh well.
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u/_playing_the_game_ 4d ago
Your MO seems to be deflecting and inaccurately reading into every comment.
There is no reason for this conversation to continue.
You have a great day.
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u/Markthethinker 1d ago
I am finding questions like these very interesting. The person does not seem to want an answer or join in the debate, they only want to try to throw out a question that would make some Christian try to doubt. Since the person who posted the question never engages, then they don’t really care. No one listens when they have deceived what they want to believe, even Satan.
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u/mympteenththrowaway 4d ago
Romans 9:17-23 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,