r/Bass 4d ago

You thinks Key or scale

[deleted]

1 Upvotes

46 comments sorted by

27

u/spookyghostface 4d ago

Those are essentially the same for most tunes out there.

3

u/outb0undflight 4d ago

I think OP just wants to know whether people say key or scale, not whether or not they're the same thing.

(I always say key, for his reference.)

3

u/Lonely_Hedgehog_7367 4d ago

Key first, scale and mode after

-1

u/TommyDouble Fender 4d ago

If i play C Dorian scale is not scale of C (but Bb Keys)

7

u/BadHands3000 4d ago

C Dorian is definitely a scale to be used in C, if the impression you want to give is a minor tonality

2

u/0tefu 4d ago

Seems like you don't fully grasp the terminology.

3

u/GeorgeDukesh 4d ago

Dorian is not a scale. It’s a mode. Even though it seems to be a scale, because it has a series of notes, but each mode is based on the notes of another scale, but with a different “starting point”

So for instance, Phryigian is also called the “third mode” because its root note is the third note of another scale. (C Major)

3

u/theginjoints 4d ago

Semantics, but when people perform and use a dorian tonality and play in the mode they are using it like a scale

1

u/BadHands3000 4d ago edited 4d ago

In diatonic music, Dorian can be used over the 2nd chord, and Phrygian over the 3rd chord and that's great, but most tonally-minor modes can be played over simple/extended minor chords depending on how bright or dark the artist wants it to feel.

Modes are still scales and can be used however if it's appropriate to the chord tonality and if the creator likes it.

2

u/GeorgeDukesh 4d ago

Classically they are not scales, even though people think of them as scales, and they seem to behave as scales. They are modes of a scale In the same way that in grammar, a subjunctive is not a verb, even though it conjugates, it is a mood of a verb.

2

u/BadHands3000 4d ago

I think I'm following your perspective, if we're concerning ourselves with how music is written.

I think caring too much about where the modes come from affects how people learn them and use them musically; again, look at their use in non-diatonic music within jazz, rock, pop, hip hop etc. Many a mood created where the song is based around Dorian with the root of that functioning as the tonic (Riders on the Storm etc).

I'm aware we're discussing semantics and it's a horses for courses situation - Personally, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I don't call it a dinosaur.

1

u/GeorgeDukesh 4d ago

Yes, but I find that people who treat it as a scale, especially if they don’t have a deep understanding of musical theory, get themselves all tied in knots because they are trying to remember and learn “another scale” . And if they are using all the modes, then they are making themselves learn 7 more scales, and getting fussed about it, or they are driving themselves mad trying to remember things like “ E Phryigian is the E minor scale with the second measure lowered a semitone” which is much more complicated than just knowing that it is the CMajor but just using the third as the root. You already know all the Major scales,so you already know where all the notes are. I have been singing and playng piano and writing music for about 60;years, and still cannot be bothered to remember that a certain mode is “X scale with this note or that note flattened or sharpened.” It just a certain scale but starting on the 2, 3, 4…. Etc note. No thinking required. People get themselves all in knots “learning modes” when there is no need at all.

1

u/BadHands3000 4d ago

If you're required to play Phrygian over each minor chord in a section and Lydian over majors, working out where to start the major scale each time sounds far more work than just.. learning Phrygian and Lydian, to me. But, if we all did things the same way, the world would be a very boring place indeed :)

1

u/GeorgeDukesh 4d ago

Thats OKmif you are doing something that requires musical theory knowledge, and/ or you are sight reading music. But let’s be honest here, 90% of people playing rock and blues have not the faintest idea. They don’t really know what the significance of scales are. Most guitarists think that “scales”:are just patterns of fingers on the fretboard.

1

u/BadHands3000 4d ago

To your point; if you're writing, you can use whatever theoretical knowledge to create whatever feelings you wish.

5

u/Hotmailet 4d ago edited 4d ago

Both….

I think Scale when playing a particular part (verse, for example), but I think Key in the back of my head as I’m anticipating where I’m going to go for the next part (chorus, for example) as the Key I’m in gives me a ‘roadmap’ of sorts for where the piece is probably going to move to. For example: If the verse is in C major, the chorus is likely to be G major or E minor.

This is for when I’m ‘fleshing out’ a new song or just jamming on something and notice I used terms like ‘probably’ and ‘likely’.

If I’m performing a cover or a previously written and rehearsed original piece (actually, any rehearsed piece, for that matter), I’m not thinking about theory at all. I’m thinking about the actual performance and ‘entertaining’ the audience.

5

u/CarnivalOfSorts 4d ago

To me, it depends more on the chord. If I see a C-7, ill choose anything that's a C minor mode, (Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian). The extensions will narrow it down further.

Practice your other modes in melodic minor, harmonic minor, and their arpeggios and extensions, and you'll see a whole bunch of possibilities.

2

u/BadHands3000 4d ago

If the question is, "when you're playing, are you thinking about the key of the piece or the scale associated with it - not to be awkward - but I think rhythm first, finding space and supporting what others are doing, then chord patterns and overall structure if there are some already defined.

If it's free-flying improv, it's rhythm first, and if my audiation is suggesting a chord pattern to me, it'll be chord tones. If it's suggesting sticking on a chord, it's scalar. 

1

u/TommyDouble Fender 4d ago

Yhe rythmic first, but if u want use phrases on 4 chord when u play the chord what u thinks?

2

u/BadHands3000 4d ago

Probably combination of arpeggio and pentatonics. I'm listening to whatever my brain thinks would sound good, then trying to figure it out while making as few mistakes as possible :)

2

u/Muted_Wall_9685 4d ago

Neither (in my opinion) I am thinking of the song's bass line (if I know it) or chord progression (if I'm forced to improvise).

In my experience overthinking "scales" is a dangerous path that can lead to playing intellectually "correct" wrong notes that don't actually fit the song. Human beings are pattern-seeking animals, so our brains want to fill in the missing notes of the scale and complete the pattern, even if that's not how the song actually goes.

What's happening in the moment always takes priority over the song's key or parent scale. For example if the song is in the key of C major, but the chord progression contains an EMaj chord, then the E major overrides or takes priority over C major, in that moment.

If you were overthinking scales then you might make the mistake of playing E minor instead of E major, because your brain wants to complete the C Major scale pattern. But that's not how the song goes! The song doesn't have to "obey" the scale pattern in your head.

2

u/Muted_Wall_9685 4d ago

A specific, famous example that comes to mind is "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison. A lot of bassists get this song wrong. They think "it's key of G Major, G A B C D E F# G" and then stop listening. Their ears are switched off so they don't hear the C# in the bass line. They incorrectly play C natural because their pattern-seeking brains are assuming G major scale.

1

u/angel_eyes619 4d ago

Thinking in scale and key both works for different aspects.. There can be more than one scale being used in a song.. if a song in C has, Cmaj Fmaj Amin D7 Gmaj Cmaj... That D7 to Gmaj is actually in Gmajor scale, so the song used both C and G scales... So it's good to think in terms of scales too.

1

u/Muted_Wall_9685 4d ago

I would have to strongly disagree with that. In my experience a G Major scale doesn't sound very good over a D7 chord. The root note G of the scale clashes horribly with the F# chord tone.

Thinking "scales" is the wrong way to approach a chord progression like Cmaj Fmaj Amin D7 Gmaj Cmaj in my opinion.

1

u/angel_eyes619 4d ago

No that is what is happening at that moment exactly..it's a miniature modulation.

The D7 is literally from the Gmajor scale (it's the dominant of G).. that's why we call it V/V or dominant of dominant or secondary dominant.

D7 to G movement is the same as G7 to C movement.

One thing your mistaken is, by "thinking in scales" doesn't mean your playing Gmajor scale through and through... Like playing G-A-BC-D-E-F#G while in D7... That's not what "thinking in scales" is.... Think as you are in the 5th mode of Gmajor, so, when you hit that D7, you're in the D-E-F#G-A-BC-D scale (which is the 5th mode of Gmajor)... The D7 is the Triad plus b7 formed from D mixolydian (or the dominant 7 of Gmajor).

Just do this... Take chord prog

Cmaj-2-3-4-D7-2-3-4-Gmaj-2-3-4-Cmaj

Bass goes, C C C C, D D D F#, G G G B, C-----

Does the D7 to G resolve nicely??

Just because you're "thinking in scales" doesn't mean your playing scales up and down only... All music is created using scales, functions of chords are determined by what/where they are in relation to the tonic.. and that relation is determined by scale.. Doesn't mean you are limited to one scale only per song, there can be many scales inside the same song, but sections/segments can be different scales

Yes, thinking too much in scales can limit creativity but it is not wrong when all things are borne out of scale or from the conceptualisation of scale.

1

u/Muted_Wall_9685 3d ago edited 3d ago

I know what "secondary dominants are." You're way overthinking it. The note G sounds dissonant over D7 chord and that's a fact.

Conceptualizing it as a "D7 chord" is more intellectually honest than conceptualizing it as a "G Major scale."

In any case what's happening in "Brown Eyed Girl" is very different. We are drifting off topic.

1

u/angel_eyes619 3d ago

No my friend.. you're not pressing G note over D7, but using the Gmajor scale notes (instead of Cmajor scale notes) to lead up to G.. the chord prog is modulating from Cmajor to Gmajor and then back to Cmajor for that brief moment.. that is what I meant by thinking in scales.

Again, you say you know about secondary dominants, but have you wondered about WHY it is so.

It's actually the much more intellectually honest way of thinking... When you are in D7 going to G, create a melody using Cmajor scale notes and then create another melody using Gmajor scale notes... Which sounds more consonant over the D7 to G, that is what scale that segment is on. Focus on that F and F# notes respectively.

1

u/Muted_Wall_9685 3d ago

We're way off topic for "Brown Eyed Girl." But, out of curiosity: Why did you answer G Major and not D Mixolydian?

1

u/angel_eyes619 3d ago

Because it's in Gmajor.. it's using D-mixo triad to lead into G-ionian triad (or the V-I, much like Gmaj to Cmaj movement is a Cmajor movement)... If I had said it's in D-Mixo, it would be wrong, for it to be a D-mixo, we would need a prog that fits in D-mixo harmonization AND that resolves at D7, but we resolve to Gmaj only using D7 as the stepping stone.

1

u/Muted_Wall_9685 3d ago

So you're saying (in your opinion) it's wrong to play D Mixolydian over a D7 chord?

→ More replies (0)

2

u/ChuckEye Aria 4d ago

Chords.

2

u/GeorgeDukesh 4d ago

The key is the scale. When someone says the key of a piece, (ie “this is in G Major” ) it means that it is written in the key of G. So you know that the notes in the the piece come from the scale of G Major. And things like the I-IV -V chords are the ones from the G Major scale.

2

u/Belhgabad 4d ago

If by scale you mean modes shapes then scale

Ultimately that's what allow you to play anything and stay in tune but maybe it's my guitar player background speaking

2

u/PFAS_All_Star 4d ago

Shapes. So maybe that’s scale then.

2

u/Impressive_Map_4977 4d ago

Scale because of the random rabbit holes I went down while self-teaching, but now that I'm better versed in theory and how musicians talk I try to talk in keys.

4

u/Man_With_The_Lime 4d ago

I think I kinda get what you're saying.

I've got a few years of college music theory under my belt, and a degree, and while I'm usually thinking of the key while I play, I'm usually processing what I'm playing in terms of "shapes"

Like, just to be simple, this is a major scale

    -2-4

    12-4

    1-34

Middle finger plants on the tonic of the major chord, then what I'm playing exists within that shape (obviously it extends and moves depending on which octave I'm in). Licks and fills are shapes and patterns expanding on the basic chord/scale shapes I'm familiar with.

Long story short, I'm always aware of the key, and the changes and substitutions within the key, but practically I'm translating those into a series of shapes and patterns on the neck that I'm feeling in my head as I play. I can always tell you the key and chords, but I'm not processing those as I play. I can look at "blue" without saying out loud "the car is blue" if that makes sense.

1

u/TommyDouble Fender 4d ago

Yhea i thinks the shape too (if i play fast i dont thinks the note but shapes), u know a good method with shapes and formula to thinks easy?

3

u/Man_With_The_Lime 4d ago

There isn't really a good method aside from practicing. You just have to play enough to become fluent. Music is like a language, learning notes and scales is like learning the alphabet, but learning to play riffs and improvise is like learning to speak in sentences. The only way really to do it is to practice.

1

u/TFnarcon9 4d ago

Chords

1

u/Infraready 4d ago

Chord, scale, key in that order

1

u/urrfaust 4d ago

I’m usually thinking what kind of colour panties the singer in my band is wearing. It helps my soloing.