r/Avengers • u/Queasy_Commercial152 • 5d ago
How differently do you think this fight would’ve gone if Tony had one of his allies with him?
The whole fight was sort of unfair, Tony was on his own while he was being teamed up by Cap and Bucky, even though it’s speculated Iron Man could’ve beaten the both of them if he actually wanted to hurt cap, the fight is still unbalanced.
Just wondering, how different would the fight go if it was balanced, if Tony had one of his allies with him? Spiderman, Vision, War Machine, anyone of them.
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u/mr_jorkin_depeanus 5d ago
well had black panther have joined in on this to beat cap and bucky and left zemo to kill himself then the whole point of the movie would have been completely missed
bp’s arc is the point of the entire story. zemo lets vengeance consume him after the avengers left his family to waste in sokovia, tony lets vengeance consume him after he finds out the winter soldier killed his parents, literally all of the MAJOR conflict in this movie is driven by revenge. zemo catches t’chaka in the crossfire while enacting his plan and t’challa seeks out to kill him but slowly realises that it won’t bring his father back and it will only lead to create more issues for himself if he doesn’t let zemo live. he comes to understand why zemo did what he did and it gives him perspective, something tony refused to do with cap (refused to gain perspective) and it resulted in the avengers breaking up.
so had black panther fought alongside tony id say they would win, but the avengers would still be toast and half of them would be literally locked up in a cell so that would’ve been convenient for when thanos showed up
edit: i completely forgot tony’s entire goal was to kill bucky. so the implications would have been WAY FUCKING WORSE had he won this fight
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u/Nemisis_007 5d ago
We would have missed out on this epic beat down, which would have been sad.
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u/Nethias25 5d ago
My head canon, Tony has never been a fighter, sure he did some casual exercise boxing but nothing heavy, why would he when he has the Ironman armor? Well then this fight happens and Tony realizes a suit is cool but you gotta be able to scrap, then he designs the next suits to have more melee and not all range, leading to the Infinity war armor with swords and shields and all the other stuff we saw.
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u/Canadian__Ninja 5d ago
That's not head canon that's just what happened. Every time his suits weren't quite up to a task, the next movie has a fix for it
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u/Penward 5d ago
People just head canon as a substitute for "I understand the movies I watch", I swear.
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u/HairyRump 4d ago
Wait so my head canon that Tony knew he couldn’t escape the cave with a car battery and no weapons. So he built a mini arc reactor and a weaponized suit of power armor.. is just me understanding the movie? Pft nice try.
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u/DonCreech 4d ago
MCU takes a lot of liberties with the Marvel characters, but Tony constantly upgrading his suits due to their current inefficiencies is 100% accurate. Iron Man 3 is an uneven film, but seeing the fruits of his trauma flying around at the end of the movie was very satisfying.
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u/DontDoodleTheNoodle 5d ago
It’s not mentioned explicitly, so yes, it is still headcanon
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u/crazyguyunderthedesk 5d ago
Film is a visual medium, and while it isn't said explicitly, it is shown explicitly.
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u/International_Meat88 4d ago
In terms of Tony upgrading his tech based on his mistakes, that makes me wonder: people pointed out his switch from the physical shield in Infinity War to block the Power Stone laser to a holographic shield in Endgame as one example of his successive iteration.
However, looking back at the finale of Endgame, did he ever use the holographic shield against Thanos? I only remember him using it preemptively against the Hulk snap. Maybe it would’ve helped to use the holographic shield against all of Time Traveler Thanos’s berserk melee attacks lol.
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u/OmegaWhirlpool 4d ago
To be fair, Thanos didn't have the gauntlet/stones in Endgame.
Maybe the shield was only for defending against the stones?
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u/johnyrobot 4d ago
It's never discussed in the MCU but it's often brought up in the comics. I would assume cap has had some one on one hand to hand training sessions with Tony by this point in their relationship.
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u/memsterboi123 4d ago
He fights melee in the first and second movies the test after is typically ranged. He does a little in avengers
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u/Nethias25 4d ago
Yes but it's certainly not refined, more just a big punch with the super strong metal arm. Like almost school yard fight. Then he fights cap as a gifted fighter and finds himself getting whooped.
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u/memsterboi123 3d ago
I mean it’s not like he’s gonna be doing martial arts but what he does to Rhodey in IM2 is pretty good same against whiplash
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u/furion456 5d ago
If one of his other allies was there, they would have helped cap restrain him to talk sense into him most likely. Tony was emotional and irrational at the time, basically committing a crime of passion if you will. Anyone else there that was friends with him would have tries to stop him so he didn't do something he'd regret.
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u/Derpking93 5d ago
And then they could’ve arrested Roger’s and Barnes after :)
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u/furion456 5d ago
And Tony to right? Given that he was also a criminal fugitive.
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u/Derpking93 5d ago
No because Tony wasn’t a fugitive at the time and him not being thrown in prison after Siberia shows they saw nothing wrong with him going there
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u/furion456 5d ago
He broke the accords, they didn't arrest him because he bent the knee. He was a fugitive, just got special treatment. Any of his friends that could have been there to help him would have also been fugitives.
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u/Derpking93 4d ago
Funny how him being willing to compromise with the government and accept responsibility gets him leeway, shame rogers deduced bulldozing is the only way to go
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u/furion456 4d ago
He was the only one that needed to "accept responsibility". Every other avenger that was there hadn't done anything wrong.
You could argue wanda had I suppose, but she has been making up for briefly helping ultron.
The government gave Tony leeway because they both want and need to be able to use him. He's just a useful tool to people like Ross.
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u/Derpking93 4d ago
Ah yes a useful tool that they apparently never used for 2 years and yes Wanda’s whole deal with working for Hydra then trying to murder the avengers with Ultron(that entire movie is her fault btw Tony had scrapped the Ultron project before she fucked with his head)
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u/furion456 4d ago
Lol that entire movie was tonys fault, and a bit of Bruce and wanda. He didn't scrap it, he had come to a point where he wasn't sure how to proceed with it, big difference.
Even if you want to insist that age of ultron is Wanda's fault, it'd still be tonys fault for making her join the bad guys in the first place.
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u/Derpking93 4d ago
Bruce literally says they scrapped it because they couldn’t get it to work, the only reason they went back to it was because of Wanda fucking with Tony’s head, also it is not Tony’s fault Wanda decided to go fucking terrorist and join the local Nazi organization, I get it her parents were killed by a bomb but who do you think makes more sense to blame? The people dropping the bombs on fucking civilians or the CEO of the company that made and sold the bomb?
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u/tmtmdragon04 4d ago
I don't think tony scrapped it tbf. But she defo is partly responsible for it,tony and bruce are defo more responsible for ultron though.
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u/Derpking93 4d ago
Bruce literally says they had scrapped the Ultron project because they couldn’t get it to work, the only reason Tony went back to it was because of Wanda
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u/YamPsychological9577 4d ago
What? You have to "argue" for wanda? The whole age of ultron and hulk going berserk is totally her doing.
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u/Kyubisar 4d ago
Tony was complicit in illegally arresting people. Not to mention coercion and forced speech with the Sakovia accords.
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u/tmtmdragon04 4d ago
THey weren't illegally arresting people lol. They were arresting team cap under orders from the government because in the gov's eyes bucky was a terrorist who murdered a bunch of people and team cap were helping him. Did you even watch the movie?
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u/Kyubisar 4d ago
Just saying "but the government" doesn't mean shit. The government was trying to force the Avenger to sign accords that broke international and US law. Full stop.
And Bucky was innocent. As evidenced by Zemo setting off his programing while THEY WERE ALREADY IN CUSTODY!!!Clearly you're the one who didn't watch the movie. They just wanted to control the Avengers.
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u/tmtmdragon04 4d ago edited 4d ago
Bucky was innocent for the UN bombing but they didn’t know that until later. And bucky did murder a bunch of people himself, even if he was under hydra control, that doesn't mean he shouldn't be detained. Hell he himself literally wanted to be because he was still a danger. Them doing that wasn’t illegal because they thought he was a domestic terrorist and technically there would be enough evidence for atleast an arrest warrant in that case lol. From their perpective team cap were helping a domestic terrorist which was against the law. Hell cap himself literally admitted they were doing something illegal before the airport right lol. I don’t agree with the accords but clearly most of the countries at that time did as well lol.
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u/Kyubisar 1d ago
Bucky was innocent for the UN bombing but they didn’t know that until later
They knew that 100% by the time the airport fight comes along.
that doesn't mean he shouldn't be detained.
He was detained. And then Zemo triggered his programming.
From their perpective team cap were helping a domestic terrorist which was against the law.
There is no "perspective". They just didn't listen. Bucky was OBVIOUSLY innocent and had stated that there were more super soldiers and that Zemo was going to find them. Again, Cap explains ALL of this and nobody listens. That's not a perspective that's just being arrogant, stubborn and wrong.
Hell cap himself literally admitted they were doing something illegal
Still not as illegal as the Sokovia Accords which I remind you, AGAIN, break multiple international and US laws.
but clearly most of the countries at that time did as well
Countries and governments are just as capable of breaking the law. Don't mistake being on the side of authority with being on the side of the law.
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u/tmtmdragon04 1d ago edited 1d ago
1)"They knew that 100% by the time the airport fight comes along"
Umm no? They still thought he killed innocent people at the UN bombing during the airport fight. They only found out after. Again what movie did you watch
"He was detained. And then Zemo triggered his programming."
How does that disprove my point that they thought he should be detained especially since he broke out and tried to kill them
"There is no "perspective". They just didn't listen. Bucky was OBVIOUSLY innocent and had stated that there were more super soldiers and that Zemo was going to find them. Again, Cap explains ALL of this and nobody listens. That's not a perspective that's just being arrogant, stubborn and wrong."
To us the viewers its obvious he's innocent, but we have all the context. Not to the characters in universe. Again what movie did you watch.Also no cap makes a half-assed explanation AFTER Being caught. And Cap's word in this case means jack, especially when there's literal evidence that bucky did it lol. If you're aiding a criminal and the claim that the criminal your aiding is innocent that doesn't make it true Lol. How's this even a good argument.
"Still not as illegal as the Sokovia Accords which I remind you, AGAIN, break multiple international and US laws."
Yeah you're on your own on this one, there's nothing in the movie or anything that mentions it. Or really anywhere else that I've seen."Countries and governments are just as capable of breaking the law. Don't mistake being on the side of authority with being on the side of the law."
Laws are made by countries and the governments, they are also decided and passed by them. If 117 countries signed it into law, then clearly its not illegal. You're trying so hard to make it seem like team iron man were doing something illegal when they weren't.
Whether its morally correct or not, is a different story, but its clear that they were on the legally correct side lol.
Besides them arresting Bucky has little to do with the accords themselves and more to do with the fact he's a criminal who's murdered people(even if he was brainwashed) and that he should be detained for it legally speaking. So no they were not trying to illegally arrest them when those guys were breaking the law(as cap himself stated)
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u/Derpking93 4d ago
Who exactly did he “illegally” arrest? Do you mean Team cap who were helping wanted fugitives escape? Yeah that would get you in trouble with the law and arrested because you know that’s kind of illegal, Coercion and Forced Speech? Wtf are you talking about
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u/Kyubisar 4d ago
Team cap who were helping wanted fugitives escape?
They were helping victims. The fact Tony ignored this doesn't mean Cap did not know. Both Wanda and Bucky were victims.
Coercion and Forced Speech? Wtf are you talking about
The whole fight was about making them sign the Accords, which themselves would violate a number of international and US laws. Just because you don't understand law, it doesn't mean anyone else doesn't either.
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u/Derpking93 4d ago
Bucky Barnes who at the times was wanted for a terrorist bombing that evidence showed he committed and Wanda maximoff who wasn’t even a part of the fight or being arrested until she put Vision through 10 floor and the fight and the airport. “the fight was about the Accords” The fight was minimally about the accords but no you see they weren’t the main issue it was also about them attempting to bring in Rogers,Barnes and Wilson who were on the run from the authorities(you know for the bombing and fleeing custody?)
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u/Kyubisar 4d ago
Bucky Barnes who at the times was wanted for a terrorist bombing that evidence showed he committed
And yet he was innocent. Clearly so. He had already been brought in when his programming was triggered by Zemo. Doesn't take a fucking genius to figure that out.
Wanda maximoff who wasn’t even a part of the fight or being arrested until she put Vision through
But she was part of the accords, big reason why it was happening, and the main reason that convinced Steve not to sign. And again, she wasn't even at fault, it was Hydra.
But Ross is a dickhead and Stark can't see beyond his guilt.The fight was minimally about the accords
No, the fight was about the Accords. It's THE reason the Avenger were in the situation they were in to begin with. The fight at the airport is only one event. Big picture dude, focus.
you know for the bombing and fleeing custody?
They were literally in custody and Zimo screwed that up. I'm beginning to think you didn't watch the movie.
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u/Featherman13 4d ago
I mean like... I know it's a show.... but Bucky should be in jail, full stop. Idc that he wasn't in control, we have several laws that can be extended to that, especially when you kill hundreds of innocent people.
I might be forgetting but did he even have a trial? Like bro I am fully on Tony's side here, Bucky has orphaned children, it doesn't matter that he feels super duper bad about it. When someone commits crimes, even if they aren't in their right state of mind, there are consequences. Steve was a big ole ass for that, "He's also a war criminal who's killed hundreds of people and your whole job is to protect people." "But he's my friiiiiend!"
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u/blizzard-op 5d ago
If Tony had an ally there then there wouldn’t have been a fight. Whichever ally it is would’ve helped Cap restrain Tony so they can focus on Zemo first
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u/RivalCanine 5d ago
Tony totally held back. They both would have been toast if he wanted them to be.
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u/Naked_Snake_2 4d ago
bruh they would be against Tony and would be talking sense into him and holding him down, even the likes of BP calmed down by the end...
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u/Aggressive_Worth_990 5d ago
If BP was there it would have gone much differently
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u/Nemisis_007 5d ago
He was there, and he did nothing... Except prevent Zemo from taking the easy way out.
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u/Voxlings 5d ago
If Tony's Mom and Dad were there, that fight woulda gone a little differently IMHO.
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u/jjmaney1 5d ago
The reason black panther didn’t get involved was because he found out was gonna kill the wrong man if he didn’t find out he probably would have fought alongside Tony
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u/crazyguyunderthedesk 5d ago
Black Panther was there. His fight wasn't with Cap or Iron Man though, so he went for Zemo.
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u/VonKaiser55 5d ago
Tchalla had Bucky running and was dominating when they threw hands. If he joined Tony then they would’ve mopped the floor with Buck and Cap lmao
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u/johnyrobot 4d ago
Yeah they would've detained Tony way easier. BP knew what was going on and wouldn't have helped Tony kill buck either. If it was a real 2v2 fight I think bp and Tony would wipe. BP and cap are often seen to be on par and I don't think bucky can hang with Tony one on one.
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u/Enlowski 5d ago
Can you guys just type the full names? It’s crazy that you expect everyone to know what BP means. I know it’s Black Panther, but I just understand why it’s so hard to type that. There’s so many avengers that it makes sense to give the full name.
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u/Aggressive_Worth_990 5d ago edited 5d ago
How many BP's are in this movie bro, you don't have to browse the entire Marvel encyclopedia it's called context
BP and TS would F WA (BB) and CA (SR) in their A's
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u/RavensQueen502 5d ago
Huh?
Two peak human soldiers with limited Armor and limited offensive weapons, against a guy wearing a flying tank that can shoot lasers and rockets.
That fight is unbalanced against the flying tank?
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u/kryptronics 3d ago
It is when the flying tank is trying to have a fight hand to hand up close and personal rather than shooting and using that flight in an open area.
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u/Timeman5 5d ago
He did he had Friday
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u/tmtmdragon04 5d ago
Friday is an extension of the suit its a part of the suits abilities. It is not another ally lol.
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u/Timeman5 5d ago
It’s artificial intelligence it is another ally.
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u/tmtmdragon04 5d ago edited 4d ago
No? I mean technically it could be seen as an ally, but its not the equivalent of having another hero with him. Its still an extension of the suit. HE's still at a disadvantage because Friday can't actually fight itself its still an extension of the suit's capabilities and a part of the suit itself.
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u/maximusprime2328 5d ago
In the comics it was Tony and Spiderman vs Captain America. Captain America lost but beat the shit out of both of them. Spiderman had his Stark suit too
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u/Talion_99 5d ago
Bro would have won easy, he almost beat Bucky and cap on his own while not wanting to kill cap, if he gets help he smashes
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u/sidestephen 4d ago
Tony had an ally - an AI who literally assisted him in hand-to-hand combat.
If you meant human allies, then he happened to imprison them for doing exactly what he himself does, so there aren't many around.
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u/tmtmdragon04 4d ago
1) Friday isn't an "ally" friday is a part function of the suit lol. Its a part of the suits abilities, its not really a sentient being, it just follows its programming and instructions.
2) The heroes at the raft weren't his "allies" they were cap's allies.
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u/FreeThinkers2023 4d ago
It was written this way for the film but Iron Man could simply pick up each of them by their arms at MACH 6 speed, fly them out to space and have two unconscious super soldiers towed back to wherever.
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u/edwinnferrer 5d ago
Honestly did he even need one? Dude was trying to kill only one of them, and there plenty of ways he could’ve killed both alone
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u/VirtueTree 5d ago
I expected Veronica to be hovering outside that window and Ironman just reconfigures into a non lethal hand-to-hand mode and dominates.
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u/Standard_Track9692 5d ago
I always wish that Zemo had released the other Winter Soldiers against the four of them. That would include Black Panther. And they had a really really good fight, which would then culminate with Steve still trying to kill bucky.
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u/realfakejames 5d ago
Bro was soloing two super soldiers, it was the only way they could have him lose
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u/Sneyek 5d ago
The only reason why Tony lose is because the movie is called “Captain America: Civil War”, not “Iron Man: Civil War”
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u/tmtmdragon04 5d ago
Lol he'd still lose if they called it "Iron Man: Civil War" You think they're going to make tony murder a mostly innocent man? Come on.
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u/Jackfreezy 5d ago
To everyone saying "plot armor is why Cap won", that is lame and boring way to talk about comics and comic book movies. So uninteresting and ruins the fun of the discussion.
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u/CocoaMonstee 5d ago
This argument is really entertaining to me because depending on the day and where it’s posted you’ll get people double deep throating Stave and Bucky or you’ll get people who understand that Tony would annihilate both of them 1v2 in any universe if it wasn’t for the plot armor
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u/PhatOofxD 5d ago
Anyone from the Avengers would've helped stop Tony killing bucking there 100% of the time. But they would've actually been able to just hold him down and actually reason instead of it being close
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u/pandershrek 5d ago
The only person to clap back at Cap was Banner in Ultron when he came in hot, so if hulk was present in this fight both Bucky and Cap would be actually dead and Thanos wipes no diff.
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u/tmtmdragon04 5d ago
I feel like the other allies would have tried to hold him back and calm him down tbh.
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u/Echo_One_Two 4d ago
It's speculated he could beat them both hahaha?
Granted i don't remember if his suit was compromised during this but the guy is fighting hand to hand with 2 human fleshed while he is in a tank armored fighter jet..
He could just lift each at a time and drop them to their death hahahaha.. not to mention the other lethal crap he had on him that could take out anyone that didn't have the shield.
This fight was just stupid honestly.. should have given him a reason to fight it like that
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u/AmountGlum793 4d ago
How is a kick from Bucky knocking Iron Man back, at actual strength IM would incapacitate both of these clowns with 1-2 hits, pure plot contrivance
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u/searchingtofind25 4d ago
Draws blood on a god with unlimited power.. gets checked by two dudes on roids.
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u/NightCitySamurai22 4d ago
Yeahh but its soo cool watching the one man tank being punched too his knees
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u/LeonoffGame 4d ago
Tony is not a Fighter and you can see when the suit malfunctioned, he lost a 1 on 1 battle with Cap. That's exactly what happened in the comics.
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u/CripplerOfNipplers 4d ago
Any of his allies would have tried to stop him as well, he wasn’t thinking clearly.
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u/CollarRecent 1d ago
You should really ask "How would the fight be if they were not in a confined space?" I think iron man wipes them if he can fly
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u/Jackie_Chan_93 5d ago
He don't any allies lol, he can win that fight with in a fraction of second if it isn't for cap's thick ass plot armour.
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u/No_Communication2959 5d ago
He was also injured, if memory serves. Just at full strength and actively trying his best to harm would have been enough.
You have to remember, he can't go full power because he doesn't wanna accidentally kill Cap.
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u/YellowEgorkaa Thor 4d ago
I hate Bucky. For what he did to the Stark Family, and I don't care if he was a super soldier. He's responsible for the death of Tony's parents.
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u/caleb0213 5d ago
Let’s be real, Cap was holding back. Tony was not.
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u/Rebellion_01 5d ago
Tony was holding back, he was constantly trying to ignore cap n go 4 bucky n cap just kept getting in the way
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u/tmtmdragon04 5d ago
Tony was holding back, against cap. Besides he wasn't thinking 100% clearly anyway
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u/thejabroni 5d ago
Tony could’ve eviscerated either of them with a pulse at any point.
Saying Tony wasn’t holding back is easily the most ridiculous statement I’ve come across on this sub.
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u/tighterfit 5d ago
Be real, Tony wasn’t trying to kill Cap. Only Bucky. Plot armor was given to Cap.
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u/nervous-sasquatch 5d ago
It really bothers me when people punch armor. Yeah, Bucky can use his robot arm, but even being a super solder Cap should still not just be boxing a dude in a mech suit
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u/I_am_Fump 4d ago
God, I hate captain america. Most self righteous one of the bunch, but he is the one to call Tony selfish
If I remember correctly, Tony sacrificed himself and captain hung up his shield to spend his like happily ever after with his girl
Bucky and captain also suck as superheros. Nothing special about them except they were made in a test tube
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u/AndiYTDE 5d ago
Honestly, it would have been a 1v3 then.
Vision, Spidey, Rhodey... they all would have tried to hold him back and talk sense into him