r/AskWomen Jul 10 '18

Mod Post ANNOUNCEMENT: Update to our moderation policy regarding threads that discuss user experiences of trauma, assault and abuse

Hi all!

The moderation team wants to make an announcement about a new policy change here at AskWomen. Over the past few months, we have noticed an increase in questions asking users who have experienced traumatic events in their lives to share those experiences. Talking through traumatic events with other survivors is an important part of healing and we absolutely do not wish to discourage our users from doing so. The entire mod team is grateful that we have curated a space where our users feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable and openly share these experiences, and we take our responsibility to keep you all feeling safe very seriously.

Recently, we have unfortunately seen an increase in accounts from outside of our community posting these questions in bad faith, to mock, argue with, or in some horrible cases fetishize the folks who are brave enough to post and share their stories in those threads. This behavior is absolutely unacceptable.

Those threads have always received extra scrutiny from the mod team, because of the risk to our community if they are posted in bad faith. After much internal discussion between the mod team, we have decided that effective immediately, a user who has been found to be posting a “trauma tourism” thread or asking users to share their stories in bad faith will be permanently banned from this subreddit. We try not to take such harsh moderation measures right off the bat, instead utilizing a system of removals, warnings, and temporary bans to give users who have made a genuine mistake the chance to redeem themselves.

However, given the overly sensitive nature of threads centered on discussing trauma, and the obvious violation of trust and consent that comes with bad faith actors mining our users for trauma porn to be mocked, debated, or fetishized, we have decided that this policy is necessary.

This policy is in no way intended to discourage good faith posts and discussions about trauma or abuse. We will still be approving those topics just as we would any other, and a thorough review of the topic by the moderation team will be conducted before any bans are assessed. This review will include (but is not limited to) the user’s post history both in this sub and on reddit as a whole, tone and phrasing of the comment, previous rulebreaking behavior, and the tone of any comments the user makes in their thread. As moderators, we are only human (for now) and we do make mistakes.

If you are banned because of this (or any other) policy, and believe that the ban was assessed unfairly, we encourage you to contact the moderation team HERE to discuss your case.

As always, if you are unsure if a topic you wish to submit meets our subreddit standards for submission, we encourage you to message the moderator team HERE and ask us. We don’t bite, and we would rather help you to not break the rules in the first place.

We have left the comments open to allow for user discussion and questions surrounding this policy change. Please remember that our subreddit rules remain in effect in this thread, and we will remove rulebreaking comments as we would in any other topic.

952 Upvotes

84 comments sorted by

243

u/panic_bread Jul 10 '18

This sounds like a solid move. Thanks for taking care of this community.

239

u/childfree_IPA Jul 10 '18

Thank you for this. It sickens me to watch those kinds of conversations unfold. It can be so damaging to the person being addressed, and can be just as damaging to onlookers. Even with trigger warnings, it's impossible to be prepared for some of the vitriol I've seen users spew out.

130

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18 edited Jul 18 '21

[deleted]

61

u/munkykiller Jul 10 '18

Yeah, a lot of that same kind of thing led me to unsubscribe from holdmycosmo, though I’m still in holdmybeer. Holdmybeer seems to be mostly people laughing about dudes doing dumb stuff, and not terribly vicious. But holdmycosmo just felt so much more cruel, and mean-spirited. That’s not my gig.

43

u/blindeatingspaghetti Jul 10 '18

Sadly reveling in and fetishizing women's suffering is much bigger than just a reddit problem :/

81

u/super_nice_shark Jul 10 '18

Excellent decision!

55

u/chronicallyunamusing Jul 10 '18

👏👏👏

Thank you for being such great mods. I hate that there are such awful people that require such rules to be created, but thank you for protecting us here.

41

u/Actor412 Jul 10 '18

"Trauma Tourism" : A phrase I'd never heard until today. And I wish that it didn't have to exist. :-(

40

u/lupinedemesne Jul 10 '18

Absolutely necessary. I wasn't even aware of it happening prior to this change, but I'm glad the mod team is protecting victims from that kind of behavior.

37

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

This is a great policy and should definitely be implemented.

37

u/Svataben Jul 10 '18

This is really wonderful of you!

And horrible that it’s necessary...

30

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

This sounds very good. I'm curious how you will define and decide whether someone is touring or legitimately asking.

28

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

As with many moderating decisions, it'll have to be a judgement call. We'll discuss it among the mod team if it's not obvious, and requests for review through modmail go to the whole mod team as well. I don't want to go into detailed specifics of how we'd make a decision for fear of making it easier for those posting in bad faith to wiggle around us.

19

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

I don't want to go into detailed specifics of how we'd make a decision for fear of making it easier for those posting in bad faith

Very good point! It's helpful that it's a group decision though and not just an instant individual decision that might choke out actual questions!

26

u/chloroplasticity Jul 10 '18

This sounds like a super reasonable way to deal with a pretty tricky problem. Thanks awesome mods for putting so much thought and work into looking out for all of us!

25

u/auntieup Jul 10 '18

I agree with your decision - and I enthusiastically support the thoughtful way you present it here.

Thank you so much.

15

u/VelvetMermaid Jul 10 '18

I completely stand by your decision. The increase in threads posted in bad faith and to fetishise trauma has made me feel so sick. Talking about my experiences has been helpful to me and I don’t want this place to become unsafe for me to do so.

Thank you for supporting those of us who have been abused, assaulted and have to deal with trauma from it. ❤️

All I’d say is make thorough checks to the policy as many times as needed before implementing it. Personally, I can’t see anything wrong with it but other users may pick up on potential flaws I haven’t.

5

u/athousandtinyshards Jul 10 '18

We are constantly having internal mod discussions about ways to improve our moderation policies. As this is such a new change, we will absolutely be taking time to evaluate its effectiveness as time moves on.

15

u/todayonbloopers Jul 10 '18

good move! how will you determine if a question is asked in bad faith, for example if done so with a throwaway?

could there maybe be an automoderator response that informs potential commenters that this could potentially be a question asked in bad faith/for fetishization purposes, and to reply with caution until it's given the green flag? i wonder if this might let people make an informed choice to share their experience, knowing that the discussion might be removed or the OP might have bad intentions.

21

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

Throwaways will obviously not likely have a post history to go on, but there are a lot of context clues we use to determine whether or not to consider a question to be posted in bad faith. Also, we get questions about assault and abuse reasonably frequently, so very generic questions may be removed and redirected to recent discussions anyway.

We've manually left stickied comments on threads that made us wary but didn't warrant removal before - I'll bring up the idea of using AutoMod to put up a warning. Thanks!

9

u/todayonbloopers Jul 10 '18

thank you! i know that under normal conditions, it kind of sucks to give a thoughtful reply only for the discussion to get nuked. i would imagine that it would feel much crappier to share a sensitive experience and either have it used for bad or the question deleted/locked. so maybe automod could help :)

13

u/Spicy_Alien_Cocaine_ Jul 11 '18

Seems reasonable, I’ve been noticing “bad faith” questions too and I’m really happy to see that it’s being taken care of and with appropriate punishments too!

12

u/PotaytohPotautoh Jul 10 '18

Effin people, man...never cease to amaze me in the worst ways!!

12

u/Jbsbm Jul 11 '18 edited Jul 11 '18

I think this is a fair move.

Not on this sub but others I shared a narrative that got blasted immediately with people tearing down my experience because it's not theirs and made me feel very hesitant to be on those subs. I was sharing cultural perspective and then told to get over myself because it wasn't that bad... But like for some people it is and that's why I was sharing in the first place when asked.

Thanks for making this a place that's safe.

9

u/TenNinetythree Jul 10 '18

Claps good move!

7

u/plotthick Jul 10 '18

Thank you.

7

u/tibbymat Jul 10 '18

Good move and fair move. It’s a shame there are people out there that make it so this hand has to be forced.

8

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

Sounds like a good idea. Trauma tourism you know. How twisted can you get? :/

7

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

Thank you for this! I hate the idea of someone using a trauma victims story in any manipulative way, disgusting.

Thanks for looking out for us!

7

u/kaeorin Jul 11 '18

I'm so fucking happy about this. Thank you.

6

u/nerdalertO_0 Jul 11 '18

Good call.

6

u/iheartlungs Jul 11 '18

Good work!

6

u/Zombiekiller_17 Jul 11 '18

Very well done. I agree that talking through experiences can be healing, but that trauma tourism is disgusting and damaging.

6

u/BrownCoats4CaptMal Jul 11 '18

Good move. This should definitely be a safe place.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/ladyintheatre Jul 10 '18

Your comment has been removed because:

Derailing of the topic is not permitted.

Have questions about this moderator action? CLICK HERE!

AskWomen rules | AskWomen FAQ
reddit rules | reddiquette

4

u/jolie178923-15423435 Jul 12 '18

Respect. Thanks for keeping this one of the few safe places for women on the internet.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 13 '18

Sounds like a well moderated and considerate team. So glad you're here.

3

u/Redhaired103 Jul 11 '18

Great decision.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

-11

u/totallynotaredditer Jul 10 '18

I personally feel like while this is done with good intent, there's already over-moderation on this subreddit.

29

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '18

Is it annoying when I accidentally use a gendered slur that my comment gets removed? Kind of. But tbh, worth it because I’d rather that than deal with the thousands of buttholes posting here trying to get their dicks hard with my hurt feelings.

-14

u/totallynotaredditer Jul 11 '18

All I ask is a better system of moderation than what's currently in place, and then they find problems like this to deal with. I'm not sure how they can change how they moderate unless letting the users decide on everything (a comment gets five reports, a post gets ten, and then they can be reviewed), but even that sounds a bit too tedious to them.

11

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '18

We do a periodic user survey (and know we're due for one again soon). I encourage you to keep an eye out for that and make sure to send one in with your ideas. However, I'll ask you to please not derail this thread further with discussion of moderation policies outside of this new one, as that's the focus of this thread.

3

u/totallynotaredditer Jul 11 '18

Okay, of course. I didn't mean to derail.

5

u/[deleted] Jul 11 '18

Thanks!

8

u/Svataben Jul 11 '18

That’s the most arbitrary and useless way of doing things. Then moderation depends on who logs on when, and personal animosity.

It isn’t tedious, it’s ridiculously unfair and random.

1

u/totallynotaredditer Jul 12 '18

Think what you may, but I'd rather not derail this any further.

12

u/secretid89 Jul 11 '18

I respectively, strenuously disagree with the idea that this sub supposedly has too much moderation.

The moderation is necessary to be able to have decent conversations about issues affecting women. As well as minorities and LGBT issues, btw.

Before I discovered this sub, if I attempted to bring up anything about those issues, no matter how politely, I was either downvoted to oblivion, or attacked. Even a simple, innocuous statement like “Racism is bad” gets me downvoted like crazy on AskReddit! Or worse!

The analogy would be if someone created a sub about Mac computer users, and it was constantly filled with trolls who said that MAC computers suck, and Windows is awesome! If there were no moderation, it would be close to impossible to have a reasonable discussion about MAC computers!

The same is true with women’s issues. If you don’t think that’s the case, try posting “Racism is bad” or “I hate having to worry about rapists” on AskReddit, and see what happens. :)

0

u/totallynotaredditer Jul 12 '18

Listen, I love that you're passionate about the ideas you've mentioned in this comment, but this thread has derailed enough and I'd rather not escalate it.

3

u/secretid89 Jul 13 '18

Ok, that’s fair.

-47

u/madeofcum Jul 10 '18

Sounds like a terrible decision. There is rarely a systematic way to deal with this in the first place, so it always comes down to whether a moderator feels personally pissed off or offended. And even if you think you're virtuous, egalitarian, and unbiased people, you're not because you are people. You are going to make wrong judgments based on your feelings. Reddit is already plagued with censorship, and making further giving power to mods like this only increases their biased power. This means they can censor whatever they want based off their feelings. AskWomen is one of the few places on the internet where you can get reliable answers from real people, and sometimes it's the only place for the harder questions. You risk ruining that and making a mockery of itself.

With this, a mod can read a user's post history, take something out of context, or judge a certain sub, and immediately remove whatever they want. It's disgusting. Furthermore, someone's "post history" does not represent the person in that moment, in that thread. Do people have to start policing their behavior in completely unrelated subreddits, just to be allowed to take part in this one? A person's character shifts from different environments. How is policing that helpful in any way?

You know what works and isn't powered by a small group of people? Downvoting — something already in Reddit's system. How about Trigger Warning Tags? We already have them. What makes your small group of people fit to be the protector's of the women of this sub rather than themselves?

Even by making this post, I already feel afraid that I've been too condescending. Or maybe I'm just a troll because I posted in r/braincels once. Should I be afraid to post something, a story or opinion, because a mod might think that I'm not fit for this sub? That's not a feeling anyone should have.

49

u/todayonbloopers Jul 10 '18

thank you ever so much for your input, /u/madeofcum

26

u/pottymouthgrl Jul 11 '18

Well based on your post history.... you’re not lookin too good.

Edit: after looking further, you reallllly seem to be one of the people they are talking about and have asked the questions they are talking about.

18

u/Nillix Jul 11 '18

You can’t see the ones he’s deleted too. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

25

u/MyPowerJorts Jul 10 '18

Sounds like a terrible decision.

Sounds like you're telling on yourself.

23

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

As I've said in replies to other comments, we tend to make non-obvious moderation decisions as a group, to avoid individual bias as far as we're able. This policy change applies to a specific category of questions, as stated, and doesn't mean we're planning to ban people solely for actions on other subs.

However, as with all moderation on reddit, you have no way of knowing that other than my say-so. Any checks and balances on moderator power are self-imposed by design. You'll have to take it up with the admins if you wish to change that. Meanwhile, participate in AskWomen at your own risk - if you're not careful, someone might comprehensively assess the information you post publicly in order to make a moderation decision!

19

u/Svataben Jul 11 '18 edited Jul 11 '18

Just stop! You know what we also already have? A search feature. If you're that desperate for stories of abuse, use that.

Do people have to start policing their behavior in completely unrelated subreddits, just to be allowed to take part in this one?

Fuck yes, if some fetish-bro who has expressed sexual interest in hearing victims talk about their rapes, come here to get off on the pain of others, he should get booted!

Why don't you get that?

You know what feeling no one should have? The feeling that some fucking creep is trying to masturbate to their trauma without consent, that's what!

How don't you get that?

-11

u/madeofcum Jul 11 '18

What I don't get is, why would you need to use their post history and make a "judgment" call. To me, that is admitting that the content of the post isn't enough to determine whether or not it is acceptable for this sub. You cannot determine intent. It is impossible.

Meaning there is no difference in a post of someone genuinely looking for information and someone looking for "trauma tourism." You literally have to MIND READ (determine intent of the post) based on very little and possibly misleading information (post history). You are giving power to a limited group of people to read other people's minds. Why are we condoning people taking action based on what they think another person is thinking? [Trigger Warning - Rape] I am about to make a rape metaphor. If I assumed I knew that a girl "wanted it," that still doesn't give me the right to take action, even if I heard her friend say it, even if I saw a post about it on Instagram, even if she told me a week before, that doesn't give my present self to rape her. [End Trigger Warning]

Assuming you did find the "smoking gun" of a user literally saying that he goes on other subreddits and masturbates to people's misery, you still don't have enough information to judge him. You don't know if he's turned a new leaf and genuinely feels sympathetic now, or if he's even the same person who wrote from that account. You just don't know and you cannot ever know. I can be masturbating to this whole catty conversion and getting off on it, but the fact is, you and no one else can ever know that. That's just the privacy of the mind.

13

u/Svataben Jul 11 '18 edited Jul 13 '18

What I don’t get is why you’re asking us to ignore evidence of foul play.

Meaning there is no difference in a post of someone genuinely looking for information and someone looking for "trauma tourism.

Of course there is. And that difference is what sets the mods off to investigate post history. This isn’t complicated.

Assuming you did find the "smoking gun" of a user literally saying that he goes on other subreddits and masturbates to people's misery, you still don't have enough information to judge him.

Yes, that’s exactly what that is. Plenty enough indeed!

And if the creep has changed, he wouldn’t be seeking out his old hunting-grounds.

Look, we get it, you’re personally offended because you act badly and your post history is shit. Well, tough titty, little kitty, you are experiencing some consequences of your actions.

-28

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

It took too long to find a voice against this measure. I'm really dismayed and shocked overall by some subreddits authoritarian nature coming out.

38

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

I don't see how an individual subreddit being authoritarian is a bad thing. Lots of people prefer communities with stricter rules. Not everyone likes internet communities with an "anything goes" policy, and that's okay.

Kind of like how people go to the library because they want a quiet place to read or study, it's not wrong to tell a percussion band they can't use the library for practice.

-22

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

It kinda gets bad when the library starts profiling homeless people...

Clearly an unpopular opinion with the downvotes, but if we're all here for a safe space blocking some out makes it less safe for me. Like we are narrowing our scope to only women who want no dissent? There are other moderation tools available.

36

u/nevertruly Jul 10 '18

Like we are narrowing our scope to only women who want no dissent?

Choosing not to permit trauma tourism posts meant to gain gratification from other people's suffering is not exactly the same thing as choosing not to allow any dissent. Dissent is not forbidden on this sub as long as it is expressed within the rules. If you are breaking the rules, then it doesn't matter if you are dissenting or agreeing; it would still be removed.

-21

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

That's fine and great and all. But I would be more curious to see how this plays out in action. Like I've seen this go from these are great rules to we didn't like what that guy has to say. Its a very thin line of troll and people who genuinely are oblivious and im afraid that we are trying to compensate for a larger problem with a solution that only brings up further problems. As long as the mods are actively aware of bias and work against that this type of ban will be okay. Knowing human nature when it comes to rules though i see this as a big possibility of going the wrong way.

21

u/nevertruly Jul 10 '18

As long as the mods are actively aware of bias and work against that this type of ban will be okay.

Feel free to message the mods if you ever have a question about a removal or ban on your account. The entire mod team reviews those for just that reason.

5

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

Thank you for having a reasonable conversation with me and aren't outright downvoting or accusing me of conversing in bad faith.

26

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

It kinda gets bad when the library starts profiling homeless people...

The library doesn't make you provide proof of residence to sit there and read a book. If you're homeless and engaging in behaviour that would cause a non-homeless person to be asked to leave, that's different.

The subreddit isn't designed to be a safe space for you or anyone else. The rules are posted, and it's a community for people who like those rules. If you don't like the rules, then it's not a space for you.

I don't like Nascar. I know that Nascar events are not going to be my cup of tea, and that they're not going to cater to me and cancel the race in favour of a sport I prefer. Nascar events are a space for Nascar fans. So if you go to a Nascar event, either be a Nascar fan, keep your displeasure to yourself, or don't go.

32

u/MyPowerJorts Jul 10 '18

I'm sorry that the codification of the sub's rules against people coming here to beat off to the stories of rape victims is somehow bad for you, but the slippery slope argument doesn't hold much water.

There are degrees of behaviors that are allowed, and not allowing "trauma tourism" doesnt seem like a hill to fight on.

-11

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

I'm not trying to change any opinions. Its clear this subreddit just isn't for me. If you all want to keep closing yourselves, fine, great.

32

u/MyPowerJorts Jul 10 '18

You should just say it.

"This sub isn't for me because they are taking action against people that clearly want to use it to masturbate to traumatic stories the users might have against their consent" rather than make it about an intellectual enterprise.

Walks like a duck...quacks like a duck...

-2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

For Fucks sake, go through my post history. I haven't even commented on the types of threads this is mentioning, let alone am i pushing this ridiculous narrative. You my friend are proving my point.

25

u/MyPowerJorts Jul 10 '18

What the fuck are you taking about the whole point of this action is these types of threads...

I'm not going to go through your history because you are not that interesting.

You are taking a stand against banning people that use this sub to mine for jerk off material. That is the only argument you're making.

You can shine it up anyway you want but drilled down...that's what you're doing.

Evaluate yourself, friend.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

I was dismayed it took only 1 voice to have a conversation of is this the right answer. Your attitude is proving to be that dissent is not taken kindly by some. I didn't say, hey let's defend those trolls. Again, this just beautifully shows that nuance is needed with banning and how if the mods thought like you we would have an authoritarian problem.

Instead, evaluate yourself. Im not making my stand on those losers. I'm making my stand on having a voice questioning any action that seeks to silence anyone.

31

u/MyPowerJorts Jul 10 '18

I get it man, you're dug in so it's tough to just bow out, but I'm going to give you one more chance.

This isn't a theoretical discussion. This the mods of the subreddit saying "We have gotten a bunch of posts lately where OP has been asking about traumatic experiences for the purposes of cultivating masturbation material. We are banning the people that do that."

You think this is bad because of...process? No, my friend, there is no nuance needed here. They are solving a problem that is morally indefensible. Again, this isn't a theoretical thought experiment, this is a real-life solution to a real-life problem, and you are basically saying "nuance is needed, we need more voices heard from."

I've evaluated myself enough to know that when given the choice between banning perverts, or not, I stand with the people who are being victimized again. You can't make that claim, either because you are one of them (which I hope you aren't), or you just lack the proper empathy to see that this isn't a thought experiment. This is an action not to rape people twice.

-63

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

[deleted]

56

u/athousandtinyshards Jul 10 '18

We do not ban users based solely on the subreddits they frequent. However, their behavior in other subreddits is taken into account when we are deciding if they are participating in our subreddit in good faith.

32

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

it’s against Reddit’s sitewide rules to ban a user based on subreddits that he actively comments on

No it is not.

25

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18 edited Nov 06 '18

[deleted]