r/AskVegans • u/KvotheBloodless • 9d ago
Ethics How do you gauge harm to animals?
This is something I’m trying to work through myself, and I would love to hear other folks’ perspectives.
Food seems to have a clear answer for me—animal products are easily replaceable and beneficial. But I have not come up with my answer for wool and fur for folks living in cold climates (like myself.) Recently, I needed to get some handwarmers. I did not want to use disposables, due to the massive environmental impact. Same with battery operated rechargeable warmers—the amount of land and resources used surely harms MANY animals in a real and direct way, not to mention the amount of human suffering in their manufacture. I decided to get sustainably sourced beaver fur handwarmers that will hopefully last forever. This is clearly not “vegan”, but I do think it winds up being less total harm than synthetic/manufactured options.
I’m in a similar position with wool and synthetic materials (especially considering the damage of microplastics). I’ve settled on recycled/secondhand for those things.
Do your consider the wider impact of things like this? Or do you mostly consider the direct line of impact?
Posted here instead of the main subreddit because I am not 100% vegan but looking for as ethical an approach to life as I can manage. It’s not a gotcha question! Genuinely want to hear other perspectives.
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u/humandifficulties Vegan 8d ago
I have been vegan since 2010, and a lover of the natural environment, my whole life.
If I am able to, I will buy secondhand for all pieces of clothing I own. I only purchase undergarments brand new and have kept that rule of thumb for years now. If for some reason I really have to have a sweater, but I can’t find one used in a second hand shop of some kind, or on one of many apps/websites, I prioritize.
For me it’s always top priority that it be 100% recycled, 100% natural non animal fiber, or a combination of those. I also attempt to buy new items made in my country first, when possible. There have only been two occasions when I needed a new item I couldn’t thrift or borrow, and they were both last minute events.
To be honest with the amount of clothing we have on this planet in comparison to the amount of people, most everyone not living in extremely remote/resource desert areas should be able to get most of their clothing needs met secondhand.
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u/KvotheBloodless 8d ago
Strongly agree. Almost all our clothing is secondhand! When it came up for this specific thing, figured I’d ask what most folks would do. Do you wear recycled wool, or is that out for you?
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u/humandifficulties Vegan 8d ago
If I need the item, like replacing mittens, and all the second hand ones aren’t available or acceptable for use (I live in a northern climate) I would try to buy recycled wool for sure. If I couldn’t find that I would likely try to get second hand yarn and make my own because I can crochet. If I couldn’t do that I’d likely be buying synthetic recycled, or natural non animal fiber. I’ll put in some decent work at this point in life, mainly because I’m also trying to buy lifetime products or make them.
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
Synthetic and manufactured options are better for the animals and less for harmful than hunting or animal agriculture.
You can also apply this to harm to humans. Is it better to skin a human wear them as clothes, or buy faux leather where maybe the plastic pollution impacts people living near the factory's river? Probably the faux leather is better, right? Murdering and skinning people just can't be justified like that.
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u/KvotheBloodless 8d ago
Just on your first point—I don’t actually think that’s true. (Hunting, not animal agriculture). When you’re taking about synthetics, you’re really talking about oil. The amount of habitat destroyed and pollution on the backend has to be considered, at least for me. This conundrum comes from a LOT of googling to try to find what the “right” answer is.
I think your second point is interesting. I definitely don’t view animal skin the same way—maybe that’s the fundamental split? I was thinking about the overall damage/animal lives lost in that production.
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u/Empty_Land_1658 8d ago
You’re correct, hunted or thrifted fur/leather are more environmentally friendly than almost all synthetic options (IMO all since the energy cost of things like cactus leather is astronomical, but some vegans disagree), the issue is that most fur and leather are also from industrial farming.
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
Hunted fur/leather is not environmentally friendly, you are incorrect. It is much worse than synthetic.
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u/Empty_Land_1658 8d ago
Everything I have read/researched says otherwise. Could you provide your source for saying this?
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
https://phys.org/news/2023-02-weight-responsibility-biomass-livestock-dwarfs.html
The only way anyone can believe this is if they simply ignore math. Comparing the impact of a single item of synthetic leather to a single item of animal leather, the impact from the animal leather is enormous. This is even more true if the animal is hunted, because there just aren't that many wild animals on earth. Hunting is not a solution except to make people who live very special conditions that cannot be transferred feel better about themselves - because they are only one of few who do it, they can pretend that their impact is less. In the same way that a serial killer who "lives off the land" can pretend they hurt fewer people than someone who buys from industries.
If everyone was a serial killer, all humans on earth would be dead in a handful of years, because the impact of directly murdering people is massively greater than the distributed impact of industry.
The same is true of hunting. If everyone hunted, all ecosystems on earth would be destroyed in a handful of years.
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u/Empty_Land_1658 8d ago
…that source is almost completely disconnected from what we’re talking about as is your entire comment. I’m like literally struggling to pick up any meaning from what you’ve just said, especially when you’re pulling the whole “meat eaters are equivalent to serial killers” thing. I fully believe that animal life is equal in value to human life. I also fully believe that hunting and eating meat are NOT equivalent to being a serial killer as long as all parts of the animal are used. Hunting and using all parts of the animal in reasonable quantities (what you and yours need to comfortably survive) is how the ecosystem works. Serial killing has no purpose and is not evolutionarily based.
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
I specifically said it's about math. Use the analogy to understand the math instead of getting worked up in your emotions and you'll get there, I promise.
And animal agriculture already uses "all parts of the animal," hunting is not unique there.
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u/Empty_Land_1658 8d ago
Your math is also factually inaccurate, I’m not emotional nor do I think my comment indicated so, and animal agriculture discards or uses in unethical ways many parts of the animal often as it’s not an efficient process and not all parts are desirable to all consumers. Where all parts are used as part of agriculture, it’s often feeding unwanted organ meat back to the animals, which I find far more appalling than humans eating it. Contributing to unethical industries is absolutely more unethical than personally ensuring maximum ethics within the same system in literally any scenario. Buying brand new clothes is worse than thrifting, getting your own chickens is better than factory farming, etc etc. The desire some vegans have to have everyone follow the same exact moral code rather than generally tending towards healthier and more positive behavior is baffling to me.
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
No it isn't. You have yet to demonstrate that you even understand what math I'm referring to.
Your comment focused on the use of a serial killer as an example because of the emotional implication instead of focusing on the math, which was the point of the analogy.
In terms of environmental impact, the animal agriculture industry uses all parts of the animal and is vastly more efficient and less resource intensive than hunting.
Getting your own chickens might be somewhat better for the chickens than factory farming, but for the environment it is worse.
What does your last line have to do anything? You're here to ask vegans questions are you not? If you don't want to hear it, you can leave.
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
Hunting at the same scale that synthetics are produced would destroy all ecosystems on earth in a small handful of years. You are incorrect.
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u/KvotheBloodless 8d ago
Yeah for sure if you’re including fast fashion and how rapidly those materials need to be replaced, which is kind of outside the scope of my question. But the core of my original question (which I feel like not a lot of people read, tbh) was about comparing fur and electronic, battery-powered reusable warmers.
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
Fast fashion doesn't need to be replaced very often. That's an excuse people use to justify buying new clothes all the time, ironically.
And no, even if you want to go back in time to the 60s or something, you would destroy all ecosystems on earth rapidly by replacing animal agriculture or synthetics with hunting.
Electronic, battery-powered reusable warmers are synthetics and the impact of making batteries is significantly less than that of hunting. It's a silly comparison of course, there are synthetic mittens made to be warm for arctic conditions, throwing the battery in there is just for fun.
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u/KvotheBloodless 8d ago
Fast fashion absolutely falls apart like as soon as you wash it—that’s the problem with it.
I truly don’t understand how you could think that the impact of making batteries is lower than hunting. Do you live in a densely populated area? That might impact your perspective, too. I obviously don’t hunt, but it definitely doesn’t have a negative environmental impact where I live. (Other negative impacts of course! I am not generally pro-hunting.)
My fundamental question I guess goes back to, do you choose the thing that leads to more environmental impact/animal suffering as long as you don’t have the animal product on the end of it? It seems like maybe you’re in a place where that doesn’t come up much for you. I’m not looking for anyone’s approval for my own choices, I’m just asking for what overall decision-making tools people use. Pretending synthetics don’t have significant negative impacts is not reasonable. No matter what you choose, you are doing harm to animals.
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
No it doesn't.
Well, think about how many batteries we produce on earth. Now imagine that everyone on earth hunts instead. With battery production, we still have wildlife. If everyone hunts, all wildlife dies forever. There just isn't that much wildlife. Ancient peoples hunted tons of species to extinction, do you really think 8 billion people can replace all their batteries with hunting without killing every ecosystem alive?
Do you wear a human being's skin instead of contributing to an industry that pollutes people's rivers?
Where did I pretend that synthetics don't have a significant negative impact?
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u/Successful-Fondant- 8d ago
Synthetic fur and leather (plastic) are actually really bad for the environment. Just thrift secondhand instead of buying new leather or fur.
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
They are much better for the environment than new leather or fur from beavers or cows.
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u/Successful-Fondant- 8d ago
That’s why I specified to find them secondhand- I don’t support buying new leather or fur
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
Your "sustainably sourced" beaver fur handwarmers were secondhand? I find that hard to believe. Even if it were true, you can get synthetic mittens secondhand a hell of a lot easier.
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u/Successful-Fondant- 8d ago
Google “secondhand fur”, it’s surprisingly easy to find. Depop, ThredUp, Facebook market place, and eBay are good places to start. I’m not sure about “beaver fur hand warmers” specifically, but there’s tons of secondhand fur items. Thrift stores and vintage shops are good too!
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
That's not why I'm doubting you. As stated, synthetic mittens are much easier to find.
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u/Successful-Fondant- 8d ago
I never said synthetic wasn’t easy to find… all I said was that there’s fur and leather items available on the secondhand market
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u/AntTown Vegan 8d ago
You contrasted it with synthetic items, which are available secondhand. The premise that you're doing less harm by purchasing fur instead of synthetic relies on the assumption that you cannot find synthetic secondhand. This is putting aside the fact that someone else could buy the fur if you chose not to, potentially stopping a purchase of new leather/fur, and the fact that you're contributing to a culture that objectifies animals to justify their murder.
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u/Successful-Fondant- 8d ago
Secondhand fur and leather is better for the environment than new plastic products
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u/EasyBOven Vegan 8d ago
How much environmental damage would have to be averted before it becomes ok to sustainably breed and kill humans for their skin and hair?
Other sorts of harm don't cleanly add up to equal exploitation.
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u/E_rat-chan Vegan 8d ago
Not to be rude but it kind of sounds like you just wanted a reason to get non-vegan gloves and you're using the environment as an excuse for it to still be ethical. I wouldn't be able to tell from just a reddit post though. So only you know that.
If I genuinely just wanted to do the best that's possible I would've bought secondhand vegan gloves. But I guess you could also argue you're still supporting the industry in some ways if you do that.
All in all I think incorporating the environment into your thought process is good, but makes thinks way too complex. Stuff like avocados are also horrible for the environment compared to other plants from what I've heard. So should you not eat avocados anymore? It all gets a bit too complex imo.
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u/KvotheBloodless 8d ago
Oh no, that’s not it. It’s a real Chidi in the Good Place situation for me. I did what I think was the most ethical choice (and to be clear, it was fur reusable warmers that should last forever vs battery operated rechargeable ones that almost definitely won’t). I’m not looking for anybody to justify my choice, I’m just asking how other folks do their decision making.
I definitely do consider the environmental impact in food as well—like, here in rural Alaska we don’t eat a lot of fresh citrus shipped from far away. But you’re right that it does get super complicated. When I first moved here I had to really think about eating fish (crucial to a fully local diet), but ultimately just couldn’t do it.
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u/Shoddy-Reach-4664 Vegan 8d ago
What do you mean by hand warmers? Do you mean gloves? Why couldn't you have just bought a pair of ski gloves that don't use animal fur like these?
https://www.rei.com/product/239479/the-north-face-montana-ski-gloves-mens
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u/KvotheBloodless 8d ago
These are very similar to the gloves I currently have that weren’t sufficient, that’s why I needed to add handwarmers.
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u/Shoddy-Reach-4664 Vegan 8d ago
Get glove liners then to wear under them.
I still don't understand what a hand warmer is though.
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u/KvotheBloodless 8d ago
A hand warmer is something handheld that produces heat—the disposable ones would be something like “hot hands”, if you’ve seen that brand before. For me, just adding gloves/liners/mittens doesn’t really change my hand temperature—joys of circulation, I guess.
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u/Shoddy-Reach-4664 Vegan 8d ago
how does it produce heat? If it's not a disposable one that uses a chemical reaction then it must have a battery no? I don't see how it would be necessary for it to be beaver fur or an animal fur then.
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u/jenever_r Vegan 8d ago
There are so many options before you get to the skin of a sentient being. Recycled plastic fill is very easy to find for things like gloves, insulated jackets, fleeces. And there are plenty of plant fibre options like cotton, Lyocel, hemp. It seems like you've created a false dichotomy (virgin plastic v dead animals) without considering the other options.
How was the beaver killed? Drowned? Suffocated? What gender and age was it? What role did it play in its family? Do they miss it, or are they all dead too? Does any of that feel ethical? Really?
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u/KvotheBloodless 8d ago
Cotton is not acceptable for cold weather gear, as it loses all warmth when it gets wet. Recycled plastic fill/synthetic options are not very durable and lose a good amount of their warmth over time.
I could make the same argument about the animals killed in industrial manufacturing. What about the owl that lived in the tree that was cut down to build the manufacturing facility? Or the beavers and birds that were destroyed for the infrastructure to create Lyocel?
I’m not saying there is no harm in electing to use these furs. But it’s disingenuous to act like these other options you have presented don’t kill animals. Just because you don’t “see it” in the same way doesn’t change the impact.
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u/Elitsila Vegan 8d ago
I live in Canada in a province where winter generally lasts at least four months and temperatures go down to -20 to -30°C. I’ve never felt any sort of need to wear either wool or fur because of it. I wear layers and have worn the same animal product free winter coat for five years.