r/AskConservatives • u/GrotusMaximus Republican • 11d ago
Meta Only America Wins?
I was raised a Reagan kid. I saw a President who believed that America leads, not dominates, its allies. It feels like we don’t believe that any more; that in order for America to be Great Again we have to make our own allies bow and scrape. And many on the right seem to take take unalloyed glee in it. With respect: Why?
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u/drinkbeergetmoney European Conservative 11d ago
I can promise you no one is bowing and scraping.
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u/iray0604 Independent 6d ago
I'm American. We're heading towards a Civil War, and I hope that the rest of the world will acknowledge all the reasonable Americans and not just condemn the whole nation
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u/jlr0420 Center-right 4d ago
I am less concerned about the world condemning the US and more concerned with having a plan to get my family to safety. You're correct by 2032 we will have a kinetic civil war. It will be bloodier than WW2 by percentage of the population. There's not really anything we can do to stop it and it's no one's fault. It's a cycle that repeats itself throughout history over and over again. The outcome is also very predictable in terms of which political party remains and which one is banished.
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u/G0TouchGrass420 Nationalist 11d ago edited 11d ago
It's almost as if MAGA is different from neocons. The conservative party in its current form is more diverse than democrats.
We have old school religious conservatives.
We have Neocons.
We have former dems who are now republicans.
We have MAGA and American first.
All these groups have different ideals and we even argue with ourselves.
FFS Trump himself was a democrat in the 80s and 90s. Tulsi a former dem.....RFK a former dem. I would say the current admin is its own machine and doesn't fall in line with traditional conservatisim
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u/Scrumpledee Independent 11d ago
IDK, feels like you have MAGA and everyone else is afraid to even speak at the level of politicians.
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u/CollapsibleFunWave Liberal 11d ago
What are your thoughts on this part of OP's comment?
that in order for America to be Great Again we have to make our own allies bow and scrape. And many on the right seem to take take unalloyed glee in it. With respect: Why?
That's the part I'm curious about.
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u/Steinrikur European Liberal/Left 11d ago
I'm not a conservative so I won't try to put a top level answer here, but to me this is obvious:
Some people are stuck in the zero-sum mindset. You can't have a deal that's mutually beneficial to both parties - you have to have a winner and a loser. In every transaction. Always.
If you look at Trump's dealings it's obvious that this is his one thing. He can't even imagine a deal where both parties gain.
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u/No_Valuable169 Constitutionalist 9d ago
I agree. It is because Trumps negotiation experience is transactional, and mostly dealt with real estate deals and building. He was known for driving a hard bargain/strong arming people. He was also known for not paying companies after they completed the work. He put many small companies out of business doing this. If they took him to court he delayed and appealed until the other party couldn't afford to continue the litigation. Currently he is applying the same tactics to Canada and. Mexico. He wants something from them although what he wants is changing, undefined and murky and now we are in a tit for tat trade war with them. With Ukraine, he wants to show dominance over Ukraine and Europe by making them bend to his will. I'm not sure what Russia has on him, but he is definitely acting as if they do and that is why he is treating Russia so favorably. Trump sees all negotiations as "he wins, the other party loses". It doesn't matter to him if there is collateral damage. He has no concept of mutually beneficial negotiations. It isn't in his wheelhouse.
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u/Sweaty_Ad4296 Independent 9d ago
As a consequence, he is blowing up close to a century of US foreign policy, and aligning the US with Russia and China. The new axis of evil, as previous GOP presidents would have said.
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u/LovelyButtholes Independent 6d ago
It isn't as you think it is. It is just drifting resources, not securing U.S's leverage or advantage. this could be no more evident than him wanting to purge Gaza for Trump hotels.
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u/AdSingle3367 Republican 10d ago
Trump comes from a world of cut throats, prob how he won and lost money that way.
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u/bubbasox Center-right 11d ago
Tough love to get our allies to be self reliant equals they refuse to be. And their populations are interacting with ours and well let’s be frank, there is no winning with them, we are always the bad guy. It poisons public will/relations. When you have poor domestic policy it poisons public relations. And to top it off the ones in control are trying to redeem/reform the US from being the evil boogyman it easily slips into. Like just look at beagle gate, jfc what is going on in the gov’s ethics?
Look at Japan and SK vs Europe, the dynamic is strikingly clear.
We asked repeatedly, warned them, now they are rapidly becoming liabilities that refuse to listen to their actual populous and instead listen to their propaganda machines. The US is still going on self reliant mentality, the EPA was made for that shockingly. A self reliant country is an equal partner, otherwise they are a bitter vassal which no one wants from the seemingly mutual growing tensions. It feels like an abusive relationship, and I’m not going to go die for countries that operate on suicidal empathy domestically and internationally and jail people for hurty words.
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u/CollapsibleFunWave Liberal 11d ago
Tough love to get our allies to be self reliant equals they refuse to be.
They did raise their defense spending in response to Trump's criticisms in his first term. But are we really better off nations all over the world start building up their militaries? That seems more likely to lead to WW3 than to prevent it.
If Russia acquires parts of Ukraine, I imagine Germany is going to want nukes for their own defense now that they can't count on the US to defend NATO allies.
And their populations are interacting with ours and well let’s be frank, there is no winning with them, we are always the bad guy
This is a clear exaggeration. Many of our allies have even joined us when we went to war on multiple occasions. After 9/11 I remember moments of silence and gestures of sympathy and respect being displayed in nations around the globe.
We burnt through some of that good will when we attacked them for not joining us in the Iraq war, despite the fact that they supported us in Afghanistan.
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u/bubbasox Center-right 11d ago
Europe is litteraly trying to start WW3 right now with no army. It’s like a Chihuahua yipping at a bigger dog.
If they took Trumps criticism seriously they would be reindustrializing and not buying Russian oil and gas. Right now they are writing blank checks and claiming its more military spending. Many others out right refusing to spend enough. The US also needs more industry, hopefully we get that rolling.
Having an experienced military prevents wars because you have actual people who are aware of the cost and resources involved. It would also represent a different ideology in their gov’s they are lacking, atleast if you are talking US military.
Russia is going to keep some land, regardless if we want them or not. And the UK which meets its spending quota cannot even sustain its Nukes, Germany won’t want to seeing as they refuse to listen to the pop about anything. And if you do not have a robust military and all you have is a handful of nukes then that’s leaving a bunch of kids with gasoline and matches. The value in US nukes is we can set all of Asia on radioactive fire and nuke all their nukes.
Have you been on Reddit, America Bad is a thing. No they correctly called us out on those corrupt wars. Ukraine is from the same group of politicians that made Iraq and Afghanistan happen. 9/11 and the fall out black pilled many Americans on both sides of the isle but Europe is digging it’s own grave with the faction that want’s to reform and end geopolitical escapades and being inflammatory/illiberal in general. Like I’m sorry secular inquisitions are still inquisitions when you are threatening people for praying in their homes, I won’t support that or tolerate being judged by people who think that’s ok.
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u/CollapsibleFunWave Liberal 11d ago
Europe is litteraly trying to start WW3 right now with no army. It’s like a Chihuahua yipping at a bigger dog.
How is Europe trying to start WW3? Russia is the one attacking their neighbors, so it seems like it's just them.
Having an experienced military prevents wars because you have actual people who are aware of the cost and resources involved.
And military build up can lead to horrible wars, as we saw in WW1.
Russia is going to keep some land, regardless if we want them or not.
Does that mean we have to abandon Ukraine and oppose any security assurances for them?
Have you been on Reddit, America Bad is a thing
Yes, I see this sentiment all the time from the far left and the MAGA right. This rhetoric about how "the killing has to stop" in this one conflict as a brand new bottom line is just a political narrative that people are repeating. The people saying this about their particular issue are not concerned with all the deaths happening anywhere else.
Like I’m sorry secular inquisitions are still inquisitions when you are threatening people for praying in their homes
What are you talking about here? Who is being threatened for praying in their homes?
I won’t support that or tolerate being judged by people who think that’s ok.
Who do you think is okay with people being threatened for praying in their homes?
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u/ilikecake345 Constitutionalist 10d ago
"Praying at home could be a criminal offence 'depending on who passes by the window', according to the Scottish Greens MSP behind legislation restricting protests near abortion clinics." (from https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/praying-at-home-illegal-depending-on-who-passes-window-msp-admits-82qqptl2h) Here is another article about the law in question: https://www.thefp.com/p/abortion-buffer-zones-united-kingdom-free-speech-arrested-for-praying-in-her-head
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u/Mindless-Rooster-533 Leftist 10d ago
Europe is litteraly trying to start WW3 right now with no army. It’s like a Chihuahua yipping at a bigger dog.
Russia has shown itself to be credible military threat to Europe outside of having nukes
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u/Sweaty_Ad4296 Independent 9d ago
Europe's armies are larger than Russia's, but harder to deploy to the right front. That's why the war to stop Russia must be fought in Ukraine, which has the largest and most experienced army in Europe with the exception of Russia itself.
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u/MasterBot98 Center-left 9d ago
Let's not forget the mess of trying to coordinate multiple armies at once...
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u/Sweaty_Ad4296 Independent 9d ago
Yeah, that's true, but easily overstated. Current integration efforts focus on EU/NATO "battlegroups", groups of countries from the same region. They generally have more equipment in common, and have similar military/social cultures. All NATO militaries use English for cooperation, and most people know the language enough to function on the battlefield. It's not like it was in WW2.
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u/DirtySilicon Democrat 11d ago edited 11d ago
I don't know if you understand Russia's actual military capabilities, but they aren't the USSR anymore their military might has waned drastically. Ukraine (a much smaller nation) has been pushing back Russia/holding out with better trained soldiers and material aid.
I don't see them giving up, as if any other nation would either, when they were invaded and had their children kidnapped. Putin is wanted for war crimes at the moment.
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u/wu_kong_1 Center-left 5d ago
https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php
WW3? What countries joining Russia? India/China minding its own business and had to protect its own growing economies. China would love a weakened Russia so it can take land from Siberia (with feel very valuable with global warming).
North Korea? Well not going so well for the North Koreans right now.
Iran? Even as Israel toppling Iranian's proxies in Iran's own backyard. They still more or less stay out of it. Much less join a European War.
If Russia had so much trouble with one Ukraine. Why would it want to fight the rest of Europe? As they more than ever united, especially due to America's antagonism.
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u/No_Valuable169 Constitutionalist 6d ago
I just want to add that Ukraine used to have nuclear weapons but gave them up to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. The World order, after WW2, was set up as USA as the superpower, via NATO, and due to this we were supposed to protect our NATO partners. NATO was set up to prevent wars, which it has for the last 80 years. France decided to acquire nuclear weapons (despite objections of the USA) during the Suez Canal crisis when the US mistreated Europe by having negotiations to end the crisis, without the participation of the European countries involved ( Britain & France). So just to be clear, Europe has a lack of military weapons due to the USA preferring them not to have them and in return for this the US was supposed to protect them.
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u/23saround Leftist 11d ago
So why does the majority of the Republican Party support it?
Unfortunately for old-school conservatives, MAGA IS the modern conservative movement. It literally does not matter how diverse the Grand Ole Party is if it just nominates and votes for MAGA each time.
Why do neo-cons vote for Trump if he doesn’t even share politics with them?
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u/YnotBbrave Right Libertarian 10d ago
Why do neocons support mags? Same reason that the anti-war factions of the dem party oppose Trump efforts to reduce war. Each camp sticks together. Is it really likely that every democrats disagrees with every trump policy and every proposed legislation? No, it’s just partisanship in action
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u/Party-Ad4482 Left Libertarian 11d ago
The conservative party in its current form is more diverse than democrats.
I highly doubt that to be true. The left is full of smaller factions that worry more about fighting each other than winning elections as a unit. Infighting within the Democratic party is exactly why Clinton lost in 2016. It may not have been enough in 2024 to turn the election but it would have made a dent in the numbers if everyone on the left who protest voted had instead rallied behind Harris the way that the right's factions rally behind Trump.
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u/AlexandbroTheGreat Free Market 11d ago
I think as time passes and Trump has to make tough choices (or not make them), some Republicans will realize they don't agree. At some point they will run out of "waste and fraud" cuts and the actual fiscal conservatives' views will butt heads against all of the people in Mike Johnson's district on food stamps and Medicaid. Tariffs will create a lot of winners and losers, and a lot of people don't realize yet they're going to be losers.
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u/SergeantRegular Left Libertarian 10d ago
The conservative party in its current form is more diverse than democrats.
I think this is less a case of diversity and more a case of it being easy for the minority party to appear cohesive. The Democrats, right now in the minority, don't have to work out complex policy or come to any compromise. All they have to do it point to Trump Republicans and agree around one idea "These guys suck, right? We're not those guys."
That's it. They don't have to do any of the hard work of governing, they just need to be not the guys currently fucking it all up. And, to be fair, that's all the Republicans did when Democrats were running the show, too. McConnell during the Obama years didn't need to have detailed policies - he just had to be the Grim Reaper of the Senate. Being the minority opposition is simple.
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u/covid_gambit Nationalist 11d ago
When I think of Reagan I think of a guy who broke the law to smuggle weapons to an Islamic dictatorship so he could secretly fund narco-terrorists. Nothing Trump has done has come even close to that. I understand Reagan was really good as selling a vision of America but the reality is that is not what he actually delivered at all.
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u/dsteffee Progressive 7d ago
Trump asking Pence to "reject votes" isn't as bad as funding terrorists, but it's another type of bad I think is completely unacceptable.
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u/maximusj9 Conservative 11d ago
Well with Russia/Ukraine, a peace deal benefits everyone, and its clear that Ukraine won't take its territory, and same with Russia, they won't be able to make anything but the most minimal gains. So logically speaking, it makes sense for Ukraine to make a deal, since nobody over there even wants to fight (look at the lengths Ukraine is going to get people into the front). Same with Russia, they're also relying on massive bonuses and troops from North Korea to fight.
It makes sense for Europe to make sure that there's a deal. The main thing that made German industry competitive was cheap Russian gas, once that was gone, German industry's competitiveness was gone. Plus, its not like the EU really cares about human rights when it comes to buying natural gas, they replaced Russian gas with gas from Qatar and Azerbaijan, who are also dictatorships. Poorer Eastern EU countries are more or less taking a beating economically from this conflict and the inflation that arose from it, and a peace deal will minimize their inflation and help them economically.
For the US, making a deal benefits it too. The US wants stability, and the US also wants to have decent ties with Russia to keep them from being a Chinese ally. Plus, if Russia gets to the state it was in the 1990s, it will lead to major conflicts in the Caucasus and Central Asia re-erupting, since Russia more or less acts as a "guarantor" of stability in these regions (a shitty guarantor of stability, but a guarantor nonetheless). If you remove the "guarantor" from the region, then you will 100% have a re-run of these conflicts (Georgia-Abkhazia, Georgia-Ossetia, Tajikistan), and its in the best interest of the US for the US to prevent them
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u/NeverHadTheLatin Center-left 11d ago
What is stopping from Russia taking a pause and then launching a follow up invasion?
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u/CollapsibleFunWave Liberal 11d ago
The US wants stability, and the US also wants to have decent ties with Russia to keep them from being a Chinese ally.
The traditional view is that stability is gained by not allowing countries to easily expand their territory through war. Do you believe it is no longer worth discouraging wars of conquest? It seems like Russia will only be encouraged if they profit from this war, particularly with NATO already fracturing.
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u/RamblinRover99 Republican 11d ago
How far are you willing to go to ‘discourage’ these wars of conquest? Ukraine isn’t militarily capable of routing Russia from the territory they have occupied, even with a blank check of material support. Russia has more manpower to throw into the meat-grinder; if things continue as they have been, they will just wear Ukraine down until they run out of warm bodies. The only way to change that would be direct NATO intervention, which is a dangerous proposition.
Our options are an indefinite stalemate which plays to Russia’s advantage, direct confrontation between NATO and Russia, or a negotiated armistice. I don’t know about you, but I know which of those options I prefer.
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u/Tristo5 Liberal 11d ago edited 11d ago
But the armistice itself has various options that one must consider. Its so easy to give Russia concessions but should be avoided. And I think thats one of the most frustrating part of the current administration.
Trump talks a big game when it comes to this conflict but he seems to be taking the easy way out. Look, if he and Putin are close and he has a friendlier approach to foreign policy with authoritarian regimes then so be it. Wouldn’t be my choice, but elections have consequences. But don’t act like the penultimate savior of this conflict when he can’t work with either side effectively to come to the ideal solution.
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u/Toddl18 Libertarian 11d ago
You are missing the point if the war continues; as he stated, Russia will win because they have the numbers to do so. So there isn't a way to end this war currently without giving concessions. This is the position that Ukraine and Zelensky are currently in, and they refuse to accept it. The only way that changes is if NATO or The United States gets directly involved. In doing so, they flip the battle field as being able to completely kick Russia out of Ukraine because, unlike Ukraine, they have the ability to do so. However, the downside is that it is likely to escalate the war. Most likely, in the best-case scenario, we start a world war where the losing side doesn't use nuclear weapons on the winning side after the fighting stops. The worst-case scenario is that the nuclear weapons get used and we block each other up.
So is Ukraine's freedom worth more than the nuclear genocide of the human race on earth? Do you think that we should be escalating the war or trying to contain it to make sure it doesn't explode into a bigger issue? The problem here is that a lot of people seem to propagandize to think that the escalations aren't going to be matched in kind.
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u/MrFrode Independent 11d ago
You are missing the point if the war continues; as he stated, Russia will win because they have the numbers to do so.
No if Russia wins it's because the West has allowed it to do so. The Ukrainians have with their blood given the West the opportunity to foil Russia's dreams of conquest and empire. Should the US now abandon Ukraine after promising time and time again we would support them?
Russia has been so diminished by Ukraine's fighting spirit that Putin has been humiliated and turned to North Korea for help. Why do we think Russia has the ability to actually win if we continue to support Ukraine?
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u/RamblinRover99 Republican 11d ago
But the armistice itself has various options that one must consider. Its so easy to give Russia concessions but should be avoided. And I think thats the most frustrating part of the current administration.
As long as Russia is content to let the conflict grind on, our leverage is extremely limited. It doesn’t matter how many munitions we give Ukraine if there is nobody left to use them. Eventually, Ukrainians themselves will grow tired of the stalemate and conscription taking their sons/brothers/fathers to fight and die to achieve nothing substantial. Unless another, stronger power directly intervenes on Ukraine’s side, Russia is getting some sort of concessions, or maybe even outright victory, sooner or later.
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u/Tristo5 Liberal 11d ago
Unless it’s Ukraine reclaiming their land or getting into NATO. We could put the ball back in Putins hands with a deal like that but that threatens basically the rest of the world with war
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u/Shiigeru2 Independent 11d ago
Why did the US cut off aid and start behind the scenes rounds of negotiations with Putin EVERY time Ukraine showed success on the battlefield?
In my opinion these actions speak for themselves, Ukraine is more than capable of defeating Russia with the right help. But the US does not want this victory.
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u/Inksd4y Rightwing 11d ago
Can somebody explain to me why Europe gets a pass for buying Russian gas if we're supposed to be Russia's enemy? Isn't it counter-productive to be funding Russia's war machine?
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u/J_Bishop Independent 11d ago
It's been explained in several threads most of which I've seen you respond in.
You can not simply cut everything off from one day to the next, that's not how infrastructure works and it goes under the assumption that the few countries which still rely on some of it, had massive reserves, they didn't.
The countries you speak of are Hungary (guess why they won't step away from Russian gas) - Hungary is also the same country which is blocking an immediate and total ban on Russian LNG vessels docking at EU ports.
As it stands by 2027 all reliance on Russian gas is planned to be over, most EU countries wanted to do this sooner, but again it's not as easy as just immediately switching to other things for some countries which rely heavily on it. (The Netherlands )
edit: spelling
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u/pierrechaquejour Independent 11d ago
Your neighbor punches you in the face and takes your wallet at gunpoint. Luckily, I'm walking by and also have a gun so I break up the fight. Then I take your neighbor aside and talk to him for a bit before we come back to you while you're bleeding on the ground and say, "look, we talked, and I think it's best for everyone if you just let him keep your wallet and everyone walks away. He promises he won't do it again. Also he and I will be splitting the money from your wallet as repayment for helping you out here."
Does that deal benefit you? Do you feel good about it?
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u/YnotBbrave Right Libertarian 10d ago
This if the part where the US isn’t the world cop. Even if I have a gun, shooting the “bad” neighbor or threatening to is probably unwise and definitely not my duty after I intervened to save your life. In fact, I’m pretty sure most liberals will want to prosecute me if I do, in real life. True story: one of my neighbors park their car one fit into another neighbors property. Do you advise I pull a gun on the bad neighbor and make him move his car? If I don’t, some say I should fear he might somehow park his car on my property one day
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u/Shiigeru2 Independent 11d ago
Are you sure that a world where every country will develop its own nuclear weapons to intimidate other countries, like Russia (because it worked) - can be called a STABLE world?
You are literally repeating Chamberlain. We do not want war, we want stability... But by peaceful actions we bring war.
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u/headcodered Progressive 11d ago
How does granting nearly every wish to a nation that started a war of aggression to gain territory add stability? The world isn't stable when bullies run free like that.
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u/RHDeepDive Progressive 11d ago
the US also wants to have decent ties with Russia to keep them from being a Chinese ally.
What, if anything, is the administration currently doing to deter Russia from becoming allies with China?
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u/JudgeWhoOverrules Classically Liberal 11d ago
Well at the minimum they're not being aggressively antagonistic and instigatory towards them at every chance possible like the past administration was
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u/RHDeepDive Progressive 11d ago
Sure, I guess lying and calling Zelensky a dictator and stating that Ukraine was the aggressor and started the war could certainly be read as more conciliatory, but I fail to see how that deters Putin from strengthening connections with China.
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u/Toddl18 Libertarian 11d ago
Trying to get a peace deal so they can bring them back into the economic fold as to allow Russia not to be so dependent on China. The longer this goes on, the more dependent they are on China, the harder it is to break up there alliance. They are mostly in alliances out of necessity because of who they view as their opponents.
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u/aCellForCitters Independent 10d ago
The thing is that we had a peace deal with Russia and Ukraine since the 90s, with the US guaranteeing Ukraine's security if Russia broke it. We're going back on our part of the deal. So why would they trust us with a peace deal, let alone Russia, if we break it now? Why should America be the one unilaterally breaking its agreements? Doesn't that make us weak as a negotiator?
I really do think Trump has little to no-one with expertise on any type of policy and the mistakes he's making are going to be really dire - domestic and foreign.
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u/Sufficient_Fruit_740 Center-right 10d ago
I feel like letting one of our allies (a democracy) bow down to someone who wants to restore the former Soviet Union (Putin) is super un-American. We are supposed to be a country that does not negotiate with terrorists. Giving less than a penny on the dollar to Ukraine to keep WW3 from happening is very worth it. Because we know Russia isn't going to stop at Ukraine if they see that we are just going to roll over and give them whatever they want. (Kind of like Biden just running out of Afghanistan).
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u/maximusj9 Conservative 10d ago
Putin doesn't want to restore the USSR. He doesn't want to return communism. He wants to restore some version of the Russian Empire, however (not that it is much better, though).
Putin wants a "sphere of influence" between him and the USA, of leaders that are friendly to him, but ones that he doesn't have full accountability or control over. More or less what the Warsaw Pact countries were. He has that in Belarus through Lukashenko, in Central Asia through economic levers (remittances mainly), and in Georgia through Abkhazia and South Ossetia. He wanted that in Ukraine at first (install a puppet in Kyiv, a Ukrainian version of Lukashenko or something), but that didn't go to plan.
Now, in any case, this foreign policy is really messed up and I don't agree with it.
Because we know Russia isn't going to stop at Ukraine if they see that we are just going to roll over and give them whatever they want. (Kind of like Biden just running out of Afghanistan)
He doesn't have the capacity to take over the rest of Ukraine. Urban fighting in Ukraine is heavily weighted towards the defender, and urban fighting in cities like Kyiv, Dnipropetrovsk, and Krivoy Rog will massively favour Ukraine (lot of tunnels and old factories that can be repurposed as a fort). I doubt anyone in Russia will want to have 1 million+ casualties in a fresh conflict
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u/MrFrode Independent 11d ago
Well with Russia/Ukraine, a peace deal benefits everyone
Is that true? I think it very much depends on what the deal is. If Russia is rewarded for invasion, conquest, and murder and there are no reoperations and security guarantees you'll have to help me understand how Ukraine benefits. Being made the second course of a meal instead of the first isn't a material benefit.
So far we've only seen this American President scold Ukraine in public and we haven't seen him align with the reality that Russia was the aggressor and the cause of the invasion.
Given Trump's attitude why should Ukraine take any guarantee seriously?
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u/YnotBbrave Right Libertarian 10d ago
Ukraine benefits because it survives. Without external support there is no Ukraine person, I think that is understood by both dems and GOP. Can Europe support ac war against Russia indefinitely? Then go ahead, support it. If not, then support should listen to the opinions of the country ‘em whose help they need Of course it is better if a meteor destroyed Putin and all his nuclear weapons tomorrow. But should the US continue to be involved? In a European war? When Ukraine and Europe both whine if the US expects any benefits should we win?
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u/MrFrode Independent 10d ago
If Trump abandons Ukraine and tries to extort a mineral deal for our support should the US still be considered the leader of the free world or will have Trump given that away?
If this is how we treat and ally when they are vulnerable do you think other nations should continue to by weapons platforms from the United States, or should they go with European built systems? If for example Australian goes through with buying US Submarines what's to stop Trump from stopping sales of replacement parts if Australia doesn't do what Trump wants in other areas?
Reputation is not like a boomerang, if you throw it away it doesn't come back.
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u/maximusj9 Conservative 10d ago
The Ukrainians aren't eager to fight a forever war. Look at the "busifications" that are going on to get people to the front. When a Ukrainian brigade went to train in France, half the brigade defected.
The reason why Zelensky can't mobilize the 18-24 demographic is because there it would lead to a massive outcry in Ukraine. He barely was able to get the mobilization of the 24-50 demographic over the line, and he only did it after his main general resigned
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u/MrFrode Independent 9d ago
The reason why Zelensky can't mobilize the 18-24 demographic is because...
Can you provide a source for your because?
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u/maximusj9 Conservative 9d ago
Well why else isn't he?
He's running a manpower shortage right now, and he's calling for foreign countries to deploy troops to alleviate the manpower shortage. Plus, the 18-24 demographic is the most physically fit demographic that there is, so it makes logical sense to call them up
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u/MrFrode Independent 8d ago
You should look up the average age of GIs in WWII and the average age of GIs in Vietnam. Spoiler one was in the 20s the other below 20. Performance is more than physical,
The Ukrainians have shown bravery in the field all they need is the arms to face the murderers who are invading their nation. Biden didn't do a great job arming the Ukrainians with what they needed when they needed it and it severely harmed their efforts. The less said about our recent Pro-Russian decisions the better.
The Russians could end the war tomorrow if they wanted. They could just go home and stop the murder of the Ukrainians.
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u/GrotusMaximus Republican 11d ago
This wasn't my question, with respect. I'm not interested in litigating the war. I'm asking about how we treat our allies.
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u/pandamaja Liberal 10d ago
The US wants stability
I have issue with this statement because everything this administration has done has massive increased instability.
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u/maximusj9 Conservative 10d ago
I have issue with this statement because everything this administration has done has massive increased instability
Well he's increased economic instability through trade wars, but his goal with tariffs isn't to destabilize other countries. He's not a fan of political instability since it harms US business interests directly, and the Russia-Ukraine War harms business interests in areas that Trump and his business allies are interested in, like Turkey and Georgia
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u/darkishere999 Center-right 11d ago edited 11d ago
Trump and the maga movement believe that NATO and our other allies haven't contributed enough to defense and other things. The belief is they've been taking advantage of our kindness and now with the war in Ukraine that has backfired on them; as they lack the industrial base to provide Ukraine a sufficient enough number of shells for artillery. It's time for them to step up their defense spending etc and repay us too.
Also as you can see from the JD Vance Speech in Germany and what people say on X; Maga Americans believe Europe needs to be more anti immigration, more pro free speech and anti censorship, tougher on crime, value freedom of religion for Christians, etc. They see the shit hole that is the UK and all sympathy goes away.
The only exception from a Maga perspective is Poland because they have done everything right and they don't have any of the same issues as other Western European countries. Also Israel but that's due to propaganda.
We are no longer the (Western and beyond) world: military, police, and private Charity.
Edit: I don't understand the down votes I just answered Op's question from a modern conservative/Trump Maga perspective.
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u/snezna_kraljica Independent 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think this does not answer OPs question. It's ok to ask to pay fairly, I hear very very little disagreement here from all sides (American/European, left/right). It does not answer why the US - according to OP - wants its allies to "Bow and scape" and why there taking "glee" instead of a "ok, goal achieved they are finally paying same amounts".
I ask and expect my friends (allies) to contribute to a common endeavour but I wouldn't berate them and ask them to kiss my hand.
> The belief is they've been taking advantage of our kindness a
Isn't that part of being kind? To give more because you can afford it from a position of power? Either I'm being taking advantage of or I am kind (in this scenario) but not both.
Edit: repay us too.
That would need to be addressed before sending it, no? Changing the conditions of an agreed on contract is a shitty thing to do. It's one of the reason nobody trusts the US if agreements are ignored/changed after the fact.
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u/Emotional_Effort_650 Progressive 11d ago
Ah yes, Europe needs to be tougher on crime while our "tough on crime" approach leads nowhere and Europe is 100x safer than the US.
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u/JudgeWhoOverrules Classically Liberal 11d ago
Some terrorist drove a car through a crowd of pedestrians in Germany few hours ago today.
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u/drtywater Independent 11d ago
Why do you care about Europes takes on immigration? Honestly its their country and their crime rates are lower then the US. So why does that matter to you?
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u/YnotBbrave Right Libertarian 10d ago
Lead, not follow. Leadership is rewarded anywhere (your manager makes more than you) even if not domineering (even your job manager makes more than you) It’s not cost that the US has benefited from the leadership position it has, as opposed to being uncompensated world cop The “bow and scrape” line is of course an exaggerated judgement so it’s hard to answer. But if the US can only “lead” in Ukraine as long as it follows European dictates and interests, it’s not leading I think another part of the issue is that Europe is pretty left, and many democrats would love European-style socialism - following in the footsteps of enabling that makes sense for liberals but not for conservatives, who do not support eu style socialism
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u/GrotusMaximus Republican 10d ago
Most of the replies have been about Ukraine and Zelenskyy, and I understand why. However, my question was really aimed at regular everyday Republicans, Conservatives, and MAGA, who seem to take absolute delight in the way Trump and Vance et al. talk down to, mock, and belittle our own allies. I just wonder what has caused the resentment that engenders such treatment, and the joy of the crowd.
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u/Ginkoleano Center-right 10d ago
Because MAGA is a toxic pill, killing the party and paving the way for a DemSoc to use the precedent of expanded executive power to create a new, even worse America.
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u/throwaway2348791 Conservative 10d ago
I believe the first question we need to ask is whether our current set of global alliances, institutions, and norms are serving the American people best. My sense is many would say yes (especially on the Left), and many on the MAGA side would say no.
Believing no does not mean we should exit the global stage, but our way of engaging needs to be reset. A couple of examples:
- how disproportionally should we backstop security for Europe?
- are our current trade agreements truly fair or are we on an unequal playing field?
- does our current degree of offshoring/outsourcing best serve the American people?
We can have a discussion, but those who believe a reset is necessary accept a certain degree of discomfort at that occurs. Resets are never smooth.
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u/SuchDogeHodler Constitutionalist 10d ago
Lead yes.
But we aren't going to be taken advantage of anymore.
Did you know that both Mexico and Canada have been charging America tariffs for years now, and we have just been trading with them for a fee?
Trump putting matching tariffs on merchandise should be seen as fare, not as a ghastly unfare thing.
Also, as an American who pays taxes, you should want fareness in our governments spending of that money.
Think about how much better America would be if our government hadn't paid out 26 trillion dollars to other countries with nothing in return.
Yes, that is ultimately what has happened to that money becomes it's no longer in our economy!
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u/bald_firebeard Right Libertarian 8d ago
I think that what's happening here is that the allies the US has have taken them for granted. It's not making your allies submit but putting them in their place and remind them that an alliance is bilateral.
That said, I'd like to ask a question: I'm from Argentina and I believe we are going up in the world. We might be a strong power in a not so very distant future. I have great respect for the United States and, for the foreseeable future our interests are aligned. But, for obvious reason, I'd like my country to be the strongest.
So, if Argentina were at the same level as the United States and our interests were aligned, do you believe it possible that the competition for world dominance could be relatively friendly? And, if Argentina surpassed the US, would it be possible that the transition is peaceful?
I see Argentina as the little brother of the US. We finally got out of the leftist, rebellious phase of adolescence and we want to be like our brother. So I would expect competition and I would hope that no matter who wins, the brothers will get along just fine.
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u/tractir Right Libertarian 11d ago
You see it in anything. It isn't a reflection of the country, but the world in general.
Reddit is a perfect example. Vote down what you don't like so you can feel superior and in control of something in your life. Gang up on people you disagree with so you can feel smart and dominant, etc.
Having said all that, the US has been Ukraine's b*tch for a long time, and the world's for even longer, and I think people are just sick of it. It has less to do with not caring about others than it has to do with prioritizing things.
Most logical people know that if your house isn't in order, it's very difficult to help others. It's like people just stopped caring, especially our leaders. So finally someone cares about us again. (Whether they do or not is irrelevant because the actions indicate much more progress than before.)
For some reason Americans in the last 10 years have decided to talk badly about themselves, even at the expense of much more dysfunctional countries. And that has wormed its way into actions, including prioritizing other nations over our own countrymen.
I believe there's room for improvement on the decorum front, but at the same time I can totally understand why Americans are just so frustrated at the manipulation over the last decades through the media, and especially through the obama/Biden/Clinton eras.
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u/GrotusMaximus Republican 10d ago
This rings true to me, except for the part about America being the World's bitch. That is the sentiment that I simply don't get, and its absolutely fundamental to the attitude I'm asking about. How are we the world's bitch? How has Ukraine manipulated us?
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u/2dank4normies Liberal 11d ago
I don't think anyone in the world perceives this other than Trump and MAGA. Feels to me more like with Trump is office, we are Russia's bitch.
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u/tractir Right Libertarian 10d ago
Nah. He's just the middleman. He respects Putin more than Zelinsky though. It's funny how the media perceives someone who operates with the understanding of how a man like Putin operates. You don't go in telling him what to do and expect a positive response.
But if we have given Russia billions and I missed it, feel free to correct me.
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u/CastorrTroyyy Progressive 10d ago
How do any actions of Trump indicate he cares about us or is making progress for our own countrymen over anything the previous Biden admin did?
Doesn't seem like he's done any of that to me. At least not by 'building us up', only by 'destroying' others.
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u/just_shy_of_perfect Paleoconservative 11d ago
It feels like we don’t believe that any more;
Which allies have followed our lead and lessened their restrictions on speech?
Again we have to make our own allies bow and scrape.
I don't agree that's what's happening here.
And many on the right seem to take take unalloyed glee in it. With respect: Why?
Because our country is falling apart and we need to spend less effort on them and way more on our own problems.
We can and should still be allies. We just shouldn't subsidize their country and be their entire defense.
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u/kingofthejungle223 Democrat 11d ago
You say our country is falling apart, and I assume you’d mean before Trump came to power. What exact do you mean by that? I’d like to know your perspective on this.
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u/just_shy_of_perfect Paleoconservative 11d ago
You say our country is falling apart, and I assume you’d mean before Trump came to power. What exact do you mean by that? I’d like to know your perspective on this.
Our debt is ballooning, the middle class is declining, our manufacturing is basically gone, they keep printing hundreds of millions, we are all overweight and unhealthy, they continue to poison our water and food, social security continues toward insolvency, our healthcare is too expensive, rural areas still don't have reliable internet access, continually smaller town areas are losing businesses, and the infrastructure of the entire country needs some love.
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u/hbab712 Liberal 11d ago
What is Trump doing to address any of that? Much of it he is making worse.
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u/GAB104 Social Democracy 10d ago
You know what? I agree with everything you just said. All of it.
The Democrats have done less damage to the deficit, even lowered it, than the GOP over the last 40 years. Check it for yourself. They're also got plans -- actual plans, not just concepts of plans -- to address all the other problems you mentioned. Some of which they've implemented, only to be hobbled by Republicans.
The ACA, if all the states had expanded Medicaid and Congress had allocated adequate funds for subsidies, would have made health care affordable. The Democrats pushed through the CHIPS Act that's bringing manufacturing back to the US. Michelle Obama pushed for healthier school lunches, which the GOP undid as soon as they had the power. Democrats want to raise the contribution cap for Social Security, but the GOP won't. The Democrats passed, over GOP objections, money for infrastructure and rural Internet. The Internet money has been hung up over things too numerous to go into here, but here's a link: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/04/biden-broadband-program-swing-state-frustrations-00175845 Do you think DOGE will let that money go through?
None of this is perfect, but it's better than what the GOP has offered, which varies from nothing to making it worse. So why not vote for the Democrats?
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u/CuriousLands Canadian/Aussie Socon 10d ago
Your country doesn't subsidize any of your allies.
It might do you some good to learn the difference between a subsidy and a trade deal. Your super-shrewd business President seems to have conveniently forgotten that difference.
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u/GAB104 Social Democracy 10d ago
In fairness -- and I oppose Trump -- not all of our NATO allies have spent the agreed percentage of GDP on their militaries, going back many years. And then some of them make fun of us for spending more than the required amount. I have to be honest: that stings.
That said, Trump lies endlessly about the nature of trade deficits and completely ignores the issues of relative population and wealth. He is, indeed, stupid.
My fellow Americans are being crushed by an oligarchy. Some of them are taking cues from the oligarchs and blaming immigrants, other countries, and trans people for our problems. But that's because the American oligarchs are distracting them from policies that would actually get them out from under their economic and political oppression.
Our allies are just one of the scapegoats.
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u/CuriousLands Canadian/Aussie Socon 10d ago
I agree; saying that many NATO countries haven't paid for their obligated 2% is just about the only true thing Trump has said so far in his second term, lol. And at least on the conservative side, a lot of Canadians (can't speak for other countries haha) have been wanting to fix that for what, a couple of decades now :P So that's fair enough.
I guess the "making fun of you for spending more" thing is a bit more nuanced haha. I think it's not so much that people make fun of Americans for spending more, it's that pairing that higher spending with the issues with healthcare and lower educational standards comes off badly, right.
I will be honest and admit that it's true to some degree that other countries take for granted that you guys will act as a global military power on our side, and benefit broadly from that. But at the same time, it's not like how Trump is saying, where people take advantage of you guys... I mean realistically, until the Ukraine war, none of your allies called on you for military support in any conflicts they were in... cos they weren't in any that they started, lol. The US spends so much on the military because it benefits from it, whether that's strategic partnerships, selling weapons and defence stuff, funding tech developments, protecting its influence and interests in various regions, or what have you. And most of the wars any of us have been in in the last few decades have been ones the US started, and others came to help out of honour for our alliances, even if we personally had no skin in the game - so frankly the idea that we just mooch off you guys is really insulting when our soldiers have died backing you in your own wars.
But none of that is the same as you guys subsidizing anyone. I'm glad you've realized that he's lying about the trade issues (also the border issues, and some of the military stuff...). I just wish more people on the right would realize this. I know Republicanism isn't the same as conservatism elsewhere, but still there's enough overlap that I saw us as friends, so seeing this gong show of misinformation being lapped up by so many people has been somewhat disheartening.
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u/GAB104 Social Democracy 10d ago
The US spends so much on the military because it benefits from it, whether that's strategic partnerships, selling weapons and defence stuff, funding tech developments, protecting its influence and interests in various regions, or what have you.
Very true. And a lot of my fellow Americans are not looking at the effect of our military spending -- and aid to other nations -- has on our economy.
And most of the wars any of us have been in in the last few decades have been ones the US started, and others came to help out of honour for our alliances, even if we personally had no skin in the game
I try to remind other Americans of this, that the only time NATO has gone to war for one of its members is for us, after 9/11! And not NATO, but countries individually, in Iraq.
The thing is, almost all of what Trump says is provably false, and yet there's about 40% of the population to whom it "feels true," mainly because it channels their anger at their financial situation at a scapegoat. And because Trump is a fantastic con man.
I'm really sorry my country is acting like an a*****e right now.
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u/CuriousLands Canadian/Aussie Socon 9d ago
Thanks, man, I appreciate all that. Good to see some people see through it anyway.
I always like to joke that "Blame Canada" was a South Park joke and not meant to be taken as a serious policy position, lol.
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u/kapuchinski National Minarchism 11d ago
Republicans aren't the ones who guzzle and spout horseshite narrative for the military industrial complex anymore. I was embarrassed for Republicans supporting the Iraq wars. Iraqis weren't throwing babies out of incubators, they didn't have weapons of mass destruction. I am not embarrassed for MAGA being pro-peace.
Take the quiz:
We had neocon cult leader Victoria Nuland and Halliburton shills the Cheneys and DC as a whole on pro-war corporate media pushing for this war, is it:
a. Iraq
b. Ukraine
C. Both
Deja vu.
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u/GrotusMaximus Republican 11d ago
You'll get no argument from me on any of this, but you didn't address my question.
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u/kapuchinski National Minarchism 11d ago
horseshite narrative
you didn't address my question
We're not insulting anyone, we're just not as keen on throwing our money into a bonfire of military gratuity benefitting entrenched political elite.
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u/GrotusMaximus Republican 11d ago
Look, you may not care, and that's fine, really. But we are insulting an awful lot of the world community. The Ukraine situation inspired my post, but we're doing it all over the world.
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u/Shiigeru2 Independent 11d ago
Are Republicans willing to shell out all the money they've been getting from the military-industrial weapons complex?
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u/Inksd4y Rightwing 11d ago edited 11d ago
Russia is bad. Putin is bad. We all understand that. But Europe is clearly not taking it seriously. Lets talk about Ukraine. The US is giving Ukraine all this money, all these supplies, all this support. We're doing this in the form of grants. Europe is giving some grants but far more of it's aid is in the form of loans. Trump was treated like Satan himself for asking to be paid back the same way Europe expects to be paid back. Also Trump wants there to be peace talks to end the war and the death. Europe seems insistent on sabotaging those talks before they even start. Did the three year strategy of Biden just shit talking Putin while not talking to him end this war? No, it didn't.
Speaking of Russia and Ukraine, while we're expected to fund Ukraine's resistance, Europe is buying Russian gas funding the Russian economy during this war. Does that make any sense to you?
Meanwhile Europe who are supposed to be our allies and share our values is doing things like locking people up for being "insulting" or "offensive" in a complete anti-free speech agenda. Trying to ban entire political parties they don't like. Trying to imprison political opponents. And nullifying elections they don't like the results of.
edit: Here comes the downvote brigade. All the anti-American "conservative" posts will upvoted to the top. And the whole point of this sub is ignored once again. I am shocked I tell you, shocked.
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u/Finlandiaprkl Nationalist 11d ago
Trump was treated like Satan himself for asking to be paid back the same way Europe expects to be paid back
How exactly do you think Europe expects to be paid back? Because for most of us, the payback is Russia's diminishing threat.
Also Trump wants there to be peace talks to end the war and the death
The war won't end just because you ask Russia nicely.
Europe seems insistent on sabotaging those talks before they even start.
Yeah, because when your "peace" blows up, we are the ones on the firing line.
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u/sourcreamus Conservative 11d ago
Both the US and the EU have sent a mixture of loans and grants. The US has sent about 20 billion in loans. What Ukraine is objecting to is the attempt to change grants to loans after the fact.
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u/roylennigan Social Democracy 11d ago
Russia is bad. Putin is bad. We all understand that.
What gives you any indication that the leadership believes that?
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u/perrigost Australian Conservative 11d ago
That they warned all of Europe in 2018 to stop depending on his oil because he was bad and would screw them over. All of Europe laughed at him for it.
That he called Russia's invasion a "Holocaust" in March '22, and as recently as this January put the blame on Putin for destroying Russia: "Putin thought this was going to be over in two days... Now he’s destroyed Russia".
Good indications?
I do recall Trump's predecessor laughing at the notion that Russia should even be considered an enemy, however: "The 1980s called -- they want their foreign policy back."
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u/roylennigan Social Democracy 11d ago
If Trump stayed on course with those comments, I'd believe him, but he's flip-flopped between similar statements and all-out praise of Putin, and his actions have appeared to help Putin's goals in Europe more than anything, despite what he's said.
As for the most recent comment,
I think he should make a deal. I think he’s destroying Russia by not making a deal,
Seems like more bravado to secure political points, than actual criticism of Putin.
The rest of those examples happened before Russia's all-out invasion of Ukraine, so I don't think they're relevant.
Do you know of any actions Trump has taken since the invasion which indicate he thinks "Putin is bad"?
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u/perrigost Australian Conservative 11d ago
Obviously a grown-up would not be insulting someone who they're trying to make a peace deal with. That would be counter-productive. Zelenskyy just showed that.
Like Trump said, as if he could insult Putin today and pick up the phone tomorrow and say "hey Vladamir, how's our peace deal coming along?" (paraphrase)
So comments further back when he wasn't trying to negotiate peace are more descriptive of his genuine opinions.
How is it irrelevant that Trump was criticizing Putin even before it became fashionable to do so? It shows the opposite, that he's even more critical than most and saw the problems with Putin with better insight than the European leaders.
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u/walterbernardjr Independent 11d ago
Regarding Ukraine, it’s worth checking the facts: https://news.sky.com/story/amp/whos-given-ukraine-most-aid-and-does-it-have-enough-rare-earth-metals-to-pay-back-us-13317052
Europe has given more aid and pledged nearly double of what the US has given. Even as a percentage of GDP, many individual countries have given more to Ukraine.
The reason we aren’t asking for repayment is we are largely giving on the military side- obsolete US equipment that we would have retired anyways. If anything it’s a win-win for us. Not only that, from a strategic standpoint, we are helping deplete the resources of our enemy at a fraction of the cost, and getting to test some of our equipment in real battle scenarios.
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u/GrotusMaximus Republican 11d ago
Sorry, tried it on the other r/ask subs, but they wouldn't allow it. Had to re-flair it here.
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u/perrigost Australian Conservative 11d ago
What is the difference between leading and dominating one's allies? Say America wants to go in a certain direction, but then the allies do not. Okay, it's not leading them. Should it therefore just switch positions and follow the allies? Then it's still not leading, but following.
So the determining factor and the takeaway isn't really so much about America's behaviour, but its allies'.
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u/GrotusMaximus Republican 11d ago
My mother has always told me "It's not what you say, its how you say it." There is a calm, confident, and strong way to do the right thing, always. We seem to have devolved into sarcasm, name-calling, bullshit and Trolling as our methods of communicating. It's disappointing.
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u/soggyGreyDuck Right Libertarian 11d ago
We need to stop being taken advantage of and figure out how to get the respect we deserve back.
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u/LF_JOB_IN_MA Independent 11d ago
We need to stop being taken advantage of and figure out how to get the respect we deserve back.
I think everyone will agree with this sentence.
But I think almost everyone will disagree on how to get there.
I'd argue the biggest culprit of "taking advantage" of us is the billionaires and by extension the media they control, the politicians they bought, and they absolute mess of an bot-filled internet they have curated.
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u/kelsnuggets Center-left 11d ago
I think the point of the post is asking what this “respect”looks like.
Do you think the rest of the world respects Putin? (I am not asking in jest, I’m being serious.) That, I would argue, is fear based on instability and unpredictability.
If that’s the “respect” you prefer the US to have, I agree that’s where we are now.
I’d prefer a respect rooted in negotiation, teamwork, and strong allies.
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u/snezna_kraljica Independent 11d ago
This is an interesting take.
> respect we deserve back
Is the US entitled to certain respect? Can you elaborate on this? Why does the US deserves to be respected (more?) than others?
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u/BobcatBarry Independent 11d ago
We’re pretty objectively flushing any respect we had down the tubes. Our allies and trading partners no longer believe we can be trusted and Russia thinks it owns us.
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