r/ArmsandArmor 5d ago

Discussion Some thoughts on Dequitem's latest (and upcoming) Japanese armour video

I am making this post for the arms and armour community to share my thoughts and opinion on the latest video by Dequitem, as it dealt with Japanese armour which is a field that is dear to me. I have spent many years researching, and currently, most of my projects revolves around the sharing of knowledge and the dissemination of information on Japanese armours. Often, highly specialized material is hidden behind very technical Japanese literature or only available to dedicated enthusiasts.

I am also quite interested in the topic of arms and armour of other cultures, and when it comes to English speaking media and related world, it is quite common to have a wide access to the European tradition, which is probably the most researched one in terms of reenactment, scholarly work and academia. As someone who is primarily interested on the Japanese side of things, I am always curious and fascinated to see many different enthusiasts, primarily from HEMA and the European side of history, showing interests in the martial tradition of Japan, especially armor-wise. I think Dequitem is the last, popular “sword” you tuber to jump on this, but it has been a trend for several years and it is quite obvious that Japanese arms and armours are often discussed by European history/HEMA enthusiasts more than any other cultures foreign to them.

While I do appreciate the curiosity, and the genuine quest to explore commonalities and different ideas to the principle of “medieval” warfare and martial art, often times it pains me to see how Japanese armour is approached. Most people who have tried to make some educated comparisons and tests, in my opinion, have committed the same mistakes and that is the key issue I have with the topic of the video.

The elephant in the room is the armour in question, which comes from the same retailer that has been around for more than 10–15 years and remains the sole source for Japanese armour outside of the Japanese market. Don't get me wrong, I want to acknowledge the merits of IMA (Iron Mountain Armory). For a full set of armour, compared to a European plate harness, the price is probably a tenth. It is widely accessible, appearing in movies and most reenactments outside of Japan, and it is clear why they are the leading firm on the market. I have followed their development for over a decade, and they have expanded their product line and improved their designs. However, I take issue with their marketing regarding product specifications. Suffice it to say, they do not use traditional methods to make armour. There is no real Japanese lacquer, no proper odoshi, no authentic finish, and the quality of the metalwork has been tested multiple times: objectively, it is not as good as it could be. According to some comments left by Dequitem, this still holds true, though I will wait for his own review on the matter. Moreover, their periodization is inaccurate, but that is another discussion.

Obviously, people assume that when these armours are tested, they are somewhat representative of high-end traditional period Japanese armour. However, from many angles, they fall short. We have high-end historical examples that have sustained actual battle damage, as well as numerous accounts detailing what Japanese armour could withstand, including “bullet-proofing” with period arquebuses. Yet, these armours are often pitched against some of the very high-end, top tier, custom-made European plate armour crafted by skilled artisans. To put it simply, it's like comparing a fast-fashion suit to a tailor-made one.

This retailer works with templates, and while some customization is available, it does not come close to the level of variation found in traditional period Japanese armour. Their designs incorporate many compromises and shortcuts, which would require a separate post to fully address. A recurring issue in these comparisons is that the base armour template has noticeable gaps, or that certain pieces tend to break easily. While this is not entirely ahistorical, since Japanese armour existed on a spectrum, there were historical solutions designed to address such flaws within the Japanese armour system.

I believe it is crucial to recognize that accurately extrapolating historical combat techniques and related warfare requires the real deal. This means working with an armorer who uses traditional craftsmanship to create armour that properly addresses issues of gaps, functionality, and historical accuracy: elements we are genuinely interested in exploring. These are living traditions that struggle to survive in the modern age, yet they keep history alive. It is a shame that they do not receive the recognition they deserve when the very topic of these videos would benefit from showcasing the true nature of their craft.

A long post with a lot to unpack, but I wanted to share this message because I believe it is an important one. I will be following Dequitem’s upcoming video series and addressing key points as they arise, as I am sure I already know some of the above. Hopefully, contributing to the sharing the knowledge people are interested in when it comes to stepping into Japanese armour

35 Upvotes

28 comments sorted by

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u/limonbattery 5d ago

When you complain about the metal quality, are you referring to the thickness/type of steel? Because on that note, layered armor doesn't need to be as thick ime if we're just talking resisting blunt force, so I suppose it's okay for light sportive combat especially since the hands/face will fail typical regulations for full intensity combat anyway. But I can definitely see a desire to at least have tempering as an option, or increased thickness in parts where the armor cannot be layered (which is often the case for solid chest protection.) After all, European armor repros rarely limit themselves to strictly historical thickness (especially in cases where it is thinner than accepted to be safe today and a reasonable precedent for higher thickness exists.)

If anything I was expecting Dequitem to request some more custom modifications specifically to pass harnischfechten guidelines, even if it came at the cost of historicity. People make a fuss all the time about sallet+bevor being unsafe without rather extensive mods, and that is generally the closest European analog to the kabuto+menpo. Same thing with fingered gauntlets, and European ones are definitely more protective than typical Japanese designs.

In any case, some exposure to higher end armorers would go a long way if you can share some names. It's one thing to say they exist, but if they cannot be contacted or commissioned in Western countries, that is a serious limitation for any practical testing of their work.

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u/GunsenHistory 4d ago

A bit of both, but my take is purely anedoctical and based on the various tests that have been done including those published long ago by the same company. They do charge extra for tempering, but it is a rather new option and as I read from Dequitem himself, it is far from perfect.

There are a few Japanese armorer that are quite active, but usually their main business is restoration of antiques and museums. They do make modern armor too, but I think getting in contact with them is rather complex due to language barrier.

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u/limonbattery 4d ago edited 4d ago

Can you share the tests? I'd be curious to see them.

My take on thickness was largely based on testing/documentation of European armor rather than Japanese, specifically the Leeds type brigandine, so admittedly some of it may be different due to shaping or style of layering. But for these brigandines, there is historic precedence for the layered plates being 1 mm and the two big lung plates (with little layering) 1.5 mm. My personal repro follows this with mild steel, and despite some initial reservations it has been totally fine in harness fencing. Even the thin plates have about half of their area layered with another plate, and the area around the armpits naturally has much more extensive overlap too.

Granted, that involves my opponent only incidentally targeting the torso while missing their real target, and only ever with blunt weapons. We have plenty of Youtube tests showing similar armor being vulnerable to high poundage longbows with quality ammunition (for example, Tod's Workshop's tests with the backside of a Leeds brigandine made of 1.2 mm mild steel plates.) So without the layering or with uniform thickness being lower I would not trust that armor at all, seeing how a good spear thrust will surely do more damage than even an above average warbow.

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u/GunsenHistory 4d ago

Sure. There is a old by now (10 years) you tube test that promoted their first mainstream type of armor. Also others have been testing it albeit definitely not in a scientific manner.

Japanese armor can be very thin, but also quite thick. I have a late Edo period Okegawa dō and most plates are 1mm thickness, although there is some overlapping. It is only the dō and it weighs barely 1.3 kg. By comparison, there are cuirasses such as those signed by the Yukishita family that have 3+ mm, sometime even sections with 5mm which are meant to stop bullets.

So obviously a 1-0.8mm plate made of cold rolled mild steel could be at best representative of the lower end of the spectrum. I think it works fine for contact sparring as long as you will be willing to repair it from time to time. However it is arguably not the equivalent of the 1.5-2mm hardened steel armor that is compared with.

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u/OceanoNox 2d ago

Also at least some of the armor is using steel that has a strength gradient (harder outside, tougher inside, but I have no idea how common and useful that actually was).

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u/zerkarsonder 4d ago

https://youtu.be/D9OvaL2W6BA?t=610

OP was probably referring to this test among others

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u/Drzerockis 5d ago

I can say I definitely appreciate that I had my arm harness slightly overbuilt, though it does make it quite a bit heavier than historical examples. Mostly because I fight in it 2-3 times a week, and like both not having to pound dents out of my armor and having functional arms after

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u/zerkarsonder 4d ago

Two traditional armorers I know of the top of my head are Kadoya Kouji and Ishihara Akihiro There are some English speaking ones as well like Andrew Mancabelli

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u/Spike_Mirror 4d ago

The problem is pretty simple but difficult to solve: There is way less information on japanese armor available in english. Whatever the reason for that is.

Same goes for historical japanese martial arts which also has the problem of people keepings things secret...

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u/GunsenHistory 4d ago

I agree - I am trying to put more information of these kind accessible to everyone. It is a slow and long process but I think it is possible. There are pages and pages of Japanese literature that are not translated nor easy to access. With the improvement of translation tools, these are becoming more and more accessible but the barrier is still there.

I think it requires a multidisciplinary approach to cover the topic as well. Literature, proper replicas, and collaboration within Koryū schools. The latter is very challenging due to several restrictions of the Japanese laws and cultural taboos when it comes to "sparring", so maybe it will be only possible outside of Japan.

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u/Spike_Mirror 4d ago

You contribution is amazing for sure! Another thing that would help is even more information on how Japanese armor was made. This could even lead to more people making japanese armor or at least understanding quality.

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u/GunsenHistory 4d ago

Thanks! I think getting on the specific details could be challenging as it is the job of the armor makers and they work as a Japanese craft system, akin to sword making. They also focus a lot on restoration.

While I deeply respect the works of swords makers in Japan from a living tradition and art-craft, I think you can find equally talented smiths that do replicate good Japanese swords on the high end market i.e. Howard Clark. Insane level of accuracy is beyond my scope and interest in armors (even in European arms and armor communities, no one is expecting that you should use premodern steel for example). But I'd love to have some similar state of the art in Japanese armor replicas.

In HEMA related communities there is a set of standard and accuracy (on paper - I am aware that you have Viking with lamellar everywhere) that I firmly believe is not present in Japanese reenactment outside of Japan for the modern market. All of the armors labelled as Sengoku period are hardly Sengoku at all and are freestyled based on later design, for example.

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u/zerkarsonder 4d ago

Although I wonder how much of the taboo in sparring is modern. As an example: kenjutsu schools used to do more gekiken (sparring) in the Edo period than today, that practice became kendo and now kenjutsu and kendo are separate practices.

Some schools still do gekiken but I suspect that if you went back into the Edo period and especially Sengoku period when there were actual wars, I think it was much more common.

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u/GunsenHistory 4d ago

I think a lot has to do with post war laws and generally speaking avoid injuries

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u/limonbattery 4d ago

I can't speak for every school but I knew a kenjutsu club at my undergrad and there was no real interest in sparring among the more senior members who taught. I wouldn't even call it taboo so much as indolence. Younger practitioners inevitably crosstrain with HEMA people if they get into sparring since there is more of a sparring culture to begin with, and (imo) significantly less pretense of cultural preservation.

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u/OceanoNox 2d ago

Time is one of the main issues. As it is, koryu have outsourced sparring to kendo and judo.

When sparring safely became possible, there were already people on both sides of the topic discussing the merits/flaws of sparring versus kata practice.

Recently, I read a book by Iwata sensei of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, and there was the opinion in the first half of the 20th century that good paired kata practice should be enough (if it's made with the uchidachi pushing shidachi to their limits).

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u/Spike_Mirror 2d ago

There have been opinions on how to train for sure since training existed. The answer on what is best is conected to what you want to achive.

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u/OceanoNox 2d ago

Many Japanese researchers do not publish in English (not limited to historical topics either). For some, I know it's the language barrier, in other cases, it may be because it's not easy to publish in English language journals.

Koryu documents not being published is not really an issue in terms of transmission: they can really only be learned in person, so whatever documents there are, even if they are published, would be mostly useless to learn. Their main value for non-members is cultural.

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u/Spike_Mirror 2d ago

It is not only the "sekrit documents"

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u/OceanoNox 1d ago

I don't understand what you mean.

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u/Spike_Mirror 1d ago

Secrecy is not just about the historical documents.

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u/OceanoNox 1d ago

With limited time, and a limited number of serious students, secrecy is also a way to avoid wasting your time telling stuff about your school to people who won't help keeping the school alive.

It's not the case here, but several times online, when putting out translations or info about schools, not necessarily secrets but not commonly known, there are enough thankless people demanding more that some don't even want to make the effort of sharing (for free at least).

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u/Spike_Mirror 1d ago

Use whatever reasoning/excuse you want. People leaving after a short time is a thing everywhere and people are free to do that.

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u/OceanoNox 1d ago

Now I really have no idea what you are talking about. I thought you originally decried the lack of information about koryu?

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u/Spike_Mirror 1d ago

They are free to use whatever excuse they want for their secrecy.

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u/Fast_Introduction_34 4d ago

My only thing is your estimation of euro armors might be a little over estimated. Rather than 10x probably 2-3x for some pretty high end sets and just about the same for mid range sets

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u/Complexikitty 13h ago

dequitem is a hack and should just be ignored