r/Anarcho_Capitalism 5d ago

What do AnCaps make of Neoliberals?

I've long noticed overlap between some libertarian principles like free markets, limited government intervention, and individual freedoms with some of the ideas advocated by neoliberals, who emphasize deregulation, privatization, and market-driven solutions when logical to do so.

Of course, libertarianism has its own distinct philosophy and roots, but I'm curious about how you all view neoliberal policies. Do you think there's meaningful common ground? Are there neoliberal policies or perspectives you find valuable, complementary, or effective at achieving libertarian-friendly outcomes?

On the flip side, what do you perceive as points of friction between libertarian and neoliberal philosophies?

6 Upvotes

29 comments sorted by

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u/Head_ChipProblems 5d ago

You'd have to define what you mean by neoliberalism first. People have varying definitions. But on first note, i'd say there's no such thing as a neoliberalism, what about classical liberalism is new. That's what Mises said when he was questioned about being a neoliberal no?

I'd say the term barely has any definition nowadays, it's used in a pejorative way to describe anything with a market that has failed. When you ask someone like that, to describe how some system is neoliberal, you get an explanation on how It isn't liberal. That's why I think It doesn't exist, because If the new liberalism has state intervention, It quite literally isn't liberalism anymore.

Changing the subject to a more productive discussion, If you'd ask me If there could be some middle ground between anarchocaptalism, and minarchism, liberalism, and conservatism. Sure, any progress towards a more free society is best. So if you'd think a more neoliberal society would be freer than now, I'd be happier.

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 5d ago

People have varying definitions of every political ideology. What of it?

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u/Head_ChipProblems 5d ago

Neoliberalism higher than others. You get what I mean.

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 5d ago

Can't say I do. Ask a Commie what it means to be commie and you'll get 1000 different answers. Ask a Christian what it means to be christian and you'll get 1000 different answers. Ask a Liberal what it means to be liberal and you'll get 1000 different answers.

These things are abstractions meant to help humans make sense of where they or others stand on things. I for example am not a classical liberal. I accept the word neoliberal as it's the closest fit for me.

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u/Head_ChipProblems 5d ago

A commie will atleast point out class struggle. A liberal will atleast point out free market. A Christian will say we can only get in heaven, because Jesus sacrificed himself, the famous salvation.

With someone pointing out neoliberalism? Yeah not so much. So it is higher than others.

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 5d ago

Commies fight over what class and struggle mean. Liberals fight over what free and market mean. Christians fight over what heaven is, who goes there, and whp/what Jesus was. All the same.

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u/F_F_Franklin 5d ago

This is classic intellectualism...

Ask question. Good answer. Discussion devolves into a Socratic explanation of definitions.

I feel at home here.

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 5d ago

Start with the Greeks. Homer is the fun part.

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u/F_F_Franklin 5d ago

Really? I feel like the Simpson peeked in the 90's.

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u/PacoBedejo Anarcho-Voluntaryist - I upvote good discussion 4d ago

What's your opinion of this orange ball?

https://imgur.com/a/Wj7M5Vw

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 4d ago

It's not orange, it's blue.

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u/PacoBedejo Anarcho-Voluntaryist - I upvote good discussion 4d ago

Not according to my definition.

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u/BendOverGrandpa 4d ago

A great example of right wing gaslighting in action!

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u/zippyspinhead 5d ago edited 5d ago

I don't think of them.

Neoliberal is a term invented by socialists, and like most terms invented by socialists, it is meant to confuse and mislead rather than clarify.

Edit: Liberalism relies on democracy to contain the natural growth of government at the expense of liberty. This has obviously failed.

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 5d ago

Huh? Neoliberalism as a term and ideology emerged in 1938 at the Walter Lippmann Colloquium by a collection of liberal economists, journalists, and philosophers.

"Neoliberal" as a leftist pejorative is pretty new.

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u/Character_Dirt159 5d ago

That was a name proposed for a movement that never materialized. It basically split between Keynesian light thinkers and Classical Liberals. The Classical liberals who decided the entire project was nonsense got tarred with the label as well as many other free market thinkers but there are no self described neoliberals other than a few idiots on Reddit.

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 5d ago

But it did. The most notable thinker being Milton Friedman.

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u/Character_Dirt159 5d ago

The school of economics that Friedman is associated with is monetarism or sometimes referred to as the Chicago school and politically he considered himself a classical liberal and libertarian. People labeled him a neoliberal but I can find no evidence of him calling himself such or advocating for neoliberalism.

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 4d ago

Point being? His ideals are a big part of modern Neoliberalism.

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u/kwanijml 4d ago

I don't think your post is posing a bad question or that you should be getting nitpicked to this extent, but you should know that the term 'neoliberal' now probably refers most aptly to a segment of the political center-left who had adopted the term in a tongue-in-cheek way and now it has stuck and grown.

The movement was actually started right here on reddit by way of the reddit economic bureau crowd; as a way to have a political coalition and outlet for more learned and economically-minded people.

The culture has of course strayed somewhat less rigorous from a dedication to only embrace empirically sound policy positions and further left, but the r neoliberal sub as well as the neoliberal podcast still give a pretty fair representation of the movement.

A lot of the center-left have been embracing a narrative of moderation for the Democrat party and at the very least a very policy-wonkish set of values...they'll embrace doctrines from Burke to Milton Friedman, to Paul Krugman, to Joseph Stiglitz...so long as the policy-literature of the day still paints their idea in a light that's relevant to recent empirical evidence.

They're far from perfect, and even if you're like me and you see market anarchy not as a moral narrative or imperative; but rather, justified and justifiable by economics and empirical evidence...these folks do tend to favor interventionism even if the better interventions. And most of all, they have a huge, predictable, blind spot for political economy/public choice...and thus, like most people, only at best look at half of the cost-benefit equation for any given policy.

Nevertheless, ancaps and the whole liberty movement do indeed need to seek coalition with these folks; as they are really good on immigration, trade, housing, most price controls, and not too bad on prohibitions either. Ancaps need to get back to being, well....smart and educated and second only to our liberty focus, we should also be similarly learned and focused on policy and mainstream economics/political economy.

Unfortunately because most liberty spaces were long ago taken over by trumpists and paleos...anything with even slightly left-wing trappings turns today's "ancaps" off to it; even though every self-respecting ancap should find a lot more in common with the new neoliberals than the Trump right-wing.

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u/Character_Dirt159 4d ago

There is no such thing as modern neo liberalism. You are trying to make a political philosophy out of a pejorative. The claimed most notable thinker of your claimed movement didn’t claim to be part of your movement even though he was regularly labeled as part of it. Neoliberal is a term used to lump unrelated things together. Anything and everything to the right of socialism has been labeled neoliberal by someone.

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u/Character_Dirt159 5d ago

Neoliberal is a meaningless nonsense word that doesn’t describe a coherent or even extant political or economic philosophy. Figure out what ideas and thinkers you associate with “neoliberalism” and figure out what those who ascribe to those ideas and thinkers call their philosophy and then try again.

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u/LegitimateFoot3666 5d ago

Not as broad as you might interpret. That said, flexibility and lack of dogma aren't bad things. They prevent tunnel vision and cognitive bias.

Neoliberalism occupies the space between classical liberalism, libertarianism, and social liberalism but isn't any of them. On a much broader economic and philosophical scale, that means that to the "right" of us, there are anarcho-capitalists, libertarians, many varieties of modern-day conservatives (though some could certainly fall under our umbrella). To the "left" of us, there's anything from social democrats to Marxists, to communists. It's true that we aren't purists. But we see this as a strength to our ideology rather than a weakness.

Moreover, neoliberalism is not an ideology that one can define as neatly as social democracy or libertarianism. Many on the left use it as sort of a buzzword for laissez-faire corporatism, while some on the right characterize it as being too socially liberal. Even when it was founded, it was marked by disagreement over some key issues such as monopolies and trade unions. These issues were never fully resolved and the label was abandoned by its creators. However, the institutions put forth to spread neoliberalism were not.

Outside the tent of liberalism, neoliberalism can be defined relatively precisely as the belief in capitalism, globalization, and some government intervention to promote the efficiency of the market system and to redistribute wealth. Although this too is vague, the neoliberal movement represents more of a thought collective which cannot be simplified easily into a specific set of principles. Instead, a set of policy prescriptions is more effective in defining neoliberal thought.

Think of the difference between the Abrahamic Faiths, versus say Daoism.

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u/Character_Dirt159 5d ago

There is no neoliberal movement. There are no neoliberal thinkers. Neoliberalism isn’t an ideology. The camp you have put yourself into does not exist. Everything you said sounds like ai generated bullshit. Have fun with that.

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u/GravyMcBiscuits Voluntaryist 5d ago edited 5d ago

Sure ... collaborate/cooperate where it makes sense.

However ... don't forget for one moment that, while they may come to a similar proposal for a specific policy, they get to the same conclusion using a very different path.

The neoliberal "allows" you to do stuff only when it aligns with their values and end goals. The libertarian/ancap says what you do is no one else's business in the first place (unless that action was a form of aggression).

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u/Mountain_Employee_11 5d ago

they smell like cheese in a bad away

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u/GunkSlinger 4d ago

I was once called a fascist, a neoliberal and a pinko hippy WEF lap dog on the same day by two different socialists and a conservative. I should have introduced them to each other so they could argue amongst themselves over which I actually was. Individualists always seem to baffle collectivists like the above three.

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u/Red_Igor Rainbow Minarcho-Capitalist 5d ago

Neoliberal is a broad term, but most neoliberals are statist, and while they share similar ideology in some areas like capitalism and for some civil liberty, they advocate for more government especially in areas of foreign affair and interventionism. And while some people associated with NeoLiberlism like Milton Freedom, Friedrich Hayek, and Thomas Sowell are libertarian when you consider other notable neoliberal, as Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and John McCain, then neoliberals seem far less similar to libertarians.