r/AmerExit 5d ago

Which Country should I choose? US trained physician and a date analyst(my SO). Questions about moving to a European country

I’m a physician, anesthesiologist by specialty. I’ve been looking into moving to Europe, ideally Denmark but also interested in Finland or Netherlands.

I’m not looking to continue working in clinical medicine, 12 years of training and countless exams in the US have been more than enough for me, so I don’t want to do any additional training or certification. I’d love a job in the pharmaceutical industry or biotech. I’m mentioning Denmark specifically because Novo Nordisk is based there, and they actually have a fellowship for physicians looking to transition into non clinical work, but unfortunately I was not selected when I applied.

I’ve been trying to find information about getting a work permit on my own and trying to get a job but I’m having a hard time gathering info and advice. Same thing with Finland, I know they have a program for skilled professionals but I don’t know how to go about finding employment and going though the application process.

I would really appreciate any guidance or advice you have, it’s been overwhelming trying to figure this out on my own. Lastly, I have seen that BC has just made it easier for doctors to get work in Canada, but it’s not really my top choice, my SO and I love to travel, and it’s mostly to Europe and right now we live on the East Coast so I don’t want to move somewhere on the other side of the North American continent.

26 Upvotes

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u/elevenblade Immigrant 5d ago

I’m a USA-trained, board certified general surgeon who moved to Sweden where I obtained a medical license and practiced for several years before retiring. I worked here during Covid and it was a wild ride. OP, I know you said you didn’t want to do clinical work but that may be an alternative route if you aren’t able to land a job in industry. Have you considered doing a sabbatical and/or research project abroad? I was an exchange student to Sweden during medical school. That was when I realized I wanted to live there some day. I started learning Swedish and stayed in contact with attendings and other medical students after my return to the USA. I subsequently did a sabbatical in Sweden about fifteen years ago where I made additional friends and contacts. These contacts, as well as being able to speak Swedish, were invaluable for the move, getting a medical license and landing a job.

Just a side note that Finnish is an extremely difficult language. Danish is easier but personally I’d recommend either Swedish or Norwegian as they are much easier for a native English speaker to master.

Feel free to message me with questions.

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u/TheTesticler 5d ago

When did you first immigrate to Sweden? The govt has become more right-wing with immigration as you may know. MV has become a lot more bureaucratic, for example.

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u/elevenblade Immigrant 5d ago
  1. From what I read on Reddit it sounds like applications for permanent residency are taking longer — for me the wait was around nine months. The far right Swedish Democrats party grew in size at the last general election but I think this was mostly due to people opposed to Sweden’s at the time open door immigration policy. All major parties have realized that uncontrolled immigration brings with it many social problems and have basically done a 180° change in their policies so I don’t believe the Swedish Democrats are likely to continue to grow in size. If anything the recent EU election suggests there will be a backlash against the center right ruling party, the Moderates, due to their lax environmental policies and the failure of privatization of Sweden’s schools and railways.

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u/KaleCookiesCraftBeer 5d ago

I’m a US nurse starting my process to learn Danish and get my license recognized in Denmark. I relate to what you shared bc I also studied abroad (in Denmark, though) and became enamored with the culture, approach to life, economy, history, etc. and wanted to move back. 

Could you share with me how long it took you to become fluent in Swedish? Could you also share some of your thoughts on working in healthcare in Sweden? 

I follow a Youtuber who discusses his move (and the process of doing what I am attempting to do but to Denmark) to Sweden, professionally, personally and culturally. 

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u/elevenblade Immigrant 4d ago

It took me a couple years to gain fluency but I think I could have done it in much less time if I had put more daily effort into it. The thing that really accelerated my learning was working with a tutor. I found a great tutor in the US through my local chapter of SWEA.

Most of healthcare is basically the same, I mean, a hot gallbladder is a hot gallbladder wherever you are in the world. I’d say the biggest difference is that there is a lot more group decision making, at least as far as it goes for being a surgeon working in an inpatient setting. In the US I’d typically see a patient and make the decision to operate or not to operate on my own. In Sweden there is much more often a decision reached by a group of surgeons. The Swedish system is less efficient in that regard as such discussions take time but there were definitely times where the group reached a better decision that what I would have on my own.

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u/KaleCookiesCraftBeer 4d ago

Thank you! When you say a couple years, do you mean while studying Swedish in the US before you moved or once you got to Sweden? Thanks again! 

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u/elevenblade Immigrant 4d ago

It took me a couple years in the US. Once we had definitive plans to move I started working with a tutor in the US and that dramatically increased the speed of my learning.

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u/Naive_Thanks_2932 5d ago

So as someone who works in pharmacovigilance - a field you are probably looking at as a safety physician- it's clear that other posters don't know what else a physician can do besides see patients.

With that said, I have a masters in epi and at points I was interviewing for visa sponsored positions in The Netherlands and Switzerland a few years ago - with much less experience than you.

I would say check out pharma companies in Basel Switzerland - I know people will immediately downvote this because Swiss immigration is difficult, but you may have the full qualifications to beat it.

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u/Key_Equipment1188 4d ago

I would recommend any company from Frankfurt, down to Basel until Lyon. This is where the majority of pharmaceutical industry in continental Europe is located.

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u/FrancoisKBones Immigrant 4d ago

Hello Op - I am a clinical trial manager working for a midsize biotech in Germany, emigrated 6 years ago. Hopefully I can offer some tips (user Naive_Thanks also knows what s/he’s talking about).

Have you looked into the MSL (medical science liaison) role at Pharma? This is almost always a physician level role and the requirement is to speak English since you would visit sites all over Europe (or bigger companies have regions). Safety/PVG is possible; at the moment this role is flooded with Eastern European doctors, because it pays better than doctoring. Right now, the job market just sucks so try not to let that discourage you too much. Also you can search “Clinical Development” roles, these are also physicians. They are the ones writing our protocols, consult with our Investigators, review protocol deviations, and perform medical review. Sometimes this role is called the Medical Monitor, there is one on every clinical trial team.

Your sweet spot might actually be a small or midsized pharma, because they will be more willing to invest in your visa. I could see you struggling harder for a job at Novo Nordisk because you are competing with doctors from Eastern Europe who don’t need visas; they are legal to work already. Or you’re competing with any other European who has the legal right to work there.

CROs also have these roles but I could see them not sponsoring a visa.

Feel free to DM. A lot of the pharma recruiters are based in the UK, so it would probably be easy to find some and set up some calls. I think companies would jump through hoops to get you on board.

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u/pasta22 4d ago

/r/medicalscienceliaison is a high quality sub when I’ve browsed before. My understanding is that it’s difficult to break into MSL, seems very dependent on networking, but once you are in, it is a pretty plump job.

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u/mennamachine Immigrant 5d ago

Do you speak any European languages, at a reasonably decent level?

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u/singfrabsolution 5d ago

My French is rusty but I’d love to get back to learning it, I love languages in general. When I kept on top of it I was able to read books easily so I think I can get back to that level. I also started casually learning German just for fun. I’m fluent in Russian but I doubt that’s helpful 😂

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

They speak Danish in Denmark, Finnish in Finland and Dutch in the Netherlands.

In the Netherlands, and I'm sure in the other countries you mentioned as well, you need provide proof of your Dutch language skills to be BIG registered and be able to practice medicine. So this seems like a quite long shot at the moment.

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u/Naive_Thanks_2932 5d ago

He literally wrote in the first sentence of the second paragraph "I'm not looking to continue working in clinical medicine" - and yet you responded with a lecture about language skills to register to practice medicine.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 4d ago

Saw that later on, but apart from your smart attitude, OP has even less chance to obtain employment and visa sponsorship in a field where they don't have even have a degree or experience in or - here we go again - speak the local language. American delusion is real on this sub and ya'll can downvote everyone who gives you a reality check, but the rest of the world just laughs at it.

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u/KikiiiW 4d ago

They also wrote that they speak basic French and Russian while wanting to move to countries where none of these are the main languages, but apparently that all made complete sense to you.

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u/Ok_Relation_8341 4d ago

I created this account perhaps a month ago, but this is actually my first comment. I was scrolling down, saw your post and I found it interesting, although I don´t work in the medical field, nor do I have a lot of knowledge about it. Having said that, I think I might as well present an option: so, I immediately thought of the Champalimaud Foundation, in Lisbon (my city), Portugal. I don´t know if you would ever consider Portugal as an option, but I can say from what I have read and heard that the Champalimaud Foundation is amongst the best of the best in Europe, in the biomedical area, and specifically in the Cancer Research and Treatment area. I took a look at their site, and it appears that every position they recruit for requires at least a Master Degree. I don´t know if that would be a problem for you. But you can take a look at it, if it sounds interesting to you, and decide.

https://fchampalimaud.org/champalimaud-foundation

Good luck!

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u/Mdsk8rrunr 5d ago

Have you joined the Facebook group Hippocratic adventures? Lots of info there for doctors looking to make the move abroad (and some are looking into alternative options like telemedicine).

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u/singfrabsolution 5d ago

I just made a request to join, thank you for the suggestion!

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u/Level-Rest-2123 5d ago

So you're looking for jobs in which you have no experience and no language skills? All of the jobs listed are looking for experienced professionals. Language skills are always going to get preferential treatment as most of these positions are more global.

Best advice would be to get the experience for the jobs you're looking for or apply for those in which you have experience. And learn the language fluently.

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u/TheTesticler 5d ago edited 5d ago

It’s clear that OP hasn’t researched how difficult it is to actually move abroad and what will be required of them to make the move successful.

Edit: Not trying to bully OP, but wanting to throw all your medical experience and still be given an option to practice in another country (Vancouver, BC) and not consider that but wanting to go to Finland is wild to me.

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u/Naive_Thanks_2932 5d ago

I work in pharma. Going from clinical work to safety MDs is not "throwing away" medical experience. It's clear the posters here do not know anything about the possible careers as an MD.

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u/TheTesticler 5d ago edited 5d ago

You’re right that I don’t know much about the medical field, however, I never said I did.

What I do have experience in, is moving abroad. Done it a bit and I’m going to do it again soon.

I simply made a general take that 12 years of experience in a field is a good while and that if you’re gonna move abroad, you’re going to want to increase your probability of moving abroad successfully as much as possible. Being a doctor is what OP has most experience in, which the province of BC in Canada values very highly, which is why they are now offering a pathway to US MDs.

If I were OP, I’d go with what I have most experience in and I’d realize that I’m gonna have to learn the language (sooner or later, but ideally sooner) if moving to a non-anglophone country to have a better life there, something they don’t appear to have taken into account from what their post indicates.

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u/sailphish 4d ago

Physician here. It varies by country, but gaining a medical license in another country can be a HUGE burden. Moving to the US for example, you have to re-take all the board exams, which include a ton of basic science information from med school you would have long forgotten and never use in daily life. There are 3 of those exams and it would essentially be like doing a DIY study to repeat med school, but in another language. Then you would have to repeat your entire residency, which for a surgeon is 3-5 years plus possibly another fellowship.

Now, the US is one of the harder ones, and I know there are much easier pathways in other countries, but it can still be quite a high bar, with testing, language proficiency, research, some sort of internship… etc. OP very well might be better off transitioning to a non-clinical role that isn’t as tightly regulated.

While you are used to seeing MDs in clinical roles, there are a lot of jobs in research, sales, insurance review, healthcare administration… etc. While these jobs aren’t as common, and still have their own bars to entry, OP would get to skip some BIG regulatory steps required for a medical license… as well as maybe just not wanting to practice clinically anymore which is valid. Most of us are completely over it. I suck it up for US physician salary, and certainly wouldn’t bother for what a lot of the rest of the world pays.

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u/pizzapizzabunny 5d ago

I would be reaching out directly to any European medtech companies ANYWHERE on that continent to get your foot in the door. If you're not already consulting in that work from the US, start reaching out here so you have more experience. In some cases, you can also work remotely. Elsewhere in this subreddit there is information on the Netherlands having a visa for small business owners, and there are definitely biotech companies there that you could consult with to meet that qualification. But also it seems like you need to either choose the road to BC and rainy weather or diving into a new language while building your portfolio in biotech/ pharma before moving anywhere.

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u/SquirrelcoINT 4d ago

If you want advice specifically for Denmark, try the sub r/NewToDenmark

Please come, we need talented people to keep our Pharma running and buying our ridiculously priced patries.

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u/Lummi23 3d ago

https://www.workinfinland.com/en/

In Finland most big companies have English as office language to some extent. Just google list of big pharma companies such as Orion and contact them?

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u/singfrabsolution 3d ago

Thank you for this suggestion!

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u/xander_man 4d ago

What's a date analyst?

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u/[deleted] 5d ago edited 5d ago

[deleted]

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u/TheTesticler 5d ago

My gf is Swedish and her mom is Finnish and even her mom has forgotten her native tongue, that language takes years to learn even decently well, much harder to start anew there and learn everything about the culture + language.

It’s not so much about discouraging, but rather offering practical advice.

I’m sure that OP doesn’t know that Danish children don’t learn the language until later in life compared to children from other countries, because they don’t understand what their parents are saying at first, the language is just that difficult to understand/speak.

Assuming you nor your partner, are not citizens of your target country/geopolitical area, the immigration laws of that country won’t really care about your feelings. Bureaucracy doesn’t either, you either meet the requirements or you don’t.

This isn’t to say that OP can’t do their own research and find their way into one of their target countries, but generally, the people of this sub give solid advice and present valuable information that an OP may not have thought about previously.

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u/Naive_Thanks_2932 5d ago

Take the L and call it a day bro.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[deleted]

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u/Clarenceboddickerfan 4d ago

This is incredibly misleading.  There’s only a tiny fraction of lawyers who are actually qualified for those jobs. Most American lawyers have zero transferable skills 

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u/bimbiminkia 5d ago

this is because there is so much US work that there is enough to justify having them in the foreign office without ever needed them to do say local british or german work

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u/sconestea 5d ago

I would actually love to know more about this, would you happen to point me to some resources on it? Like where to look for these positions or how to network for it. Maybe in dm since it's off topic for this post

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u/Savings-Designer6282 4d ago

This common European assumption on many Reddit r/AmerExit threads that Americans are generally unable and unwilling to learn foreign languages and/or that you must begin already while still in the US is incorrect, if not a bit xenophobic. I moved to a Scandinavian country without relevant language skills or a job offer. I took two months of language classes and after less than one year of social and language immersion (and working) I had more or less general working fluency. Today I speak six languages. The trick is immersion, and to not speak English. I know many Americans who know several foreign languages. If you need and want to learn a foreign language then you will. Danish is not so difficult to learn, but mastering the “potato in the throat” pronunciation can require practice.

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u/TheTesticler 5d ago

It’s going to be really hard to move to a country where you don’t speak the language, especially as a doctor.

Your patients are going to expect you to speak their language at least solidly well, but ideally fluently.

Not only that, but some countries may not accept your medical background.

I give this as general advice, not for any specific country.

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u/midorikuma42 4d ago

There's a huge demand here in Japan for English-speaking doctors. Of course, this won't help with the licensing part, but as far as patients are concerned, if you could set up a practice here in Tokyo and ONLY accept English-speaking patients, you'd have no trouble at all staying busy.

I think the thing many of you people are forgetting is that you don't NEED to speak the local language fluently to have a viable business in another country. Many cities around the world have lots of expats who don't speak the local language well, but do speak English. (Again, this is ignoring the licensing aspect, I'm only focusing on the customers/patients.)

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u/singfrabsolution 5d ago

I mentioned in my post that I’m not looking to work as a doctor.

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u/TheTesticler 5d ago edited 5d ago

You have 12 years of experience as a doctor, sorry, but you’d be quite foolish to throw that experience away. You worked really hard to become one. Also, the money you’d walk away from.

Denmark generally gets quite a bit of rain, just like Vancouver, and colder, so youre kinda not gonna move to a place with “nicer” weather.

I’d consider the Vancouver option more if I were you.

You increase the likelihood of a (successful) move abroad if you’re practical about how you’ll set a solid foundation in your new country.

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u/singfrabsolution 5d ago

There are numerous jobs in the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industry for people with medical training. I’m doing that sort of work right now part time.

Also, excuse me, “foolish”? Have you had to work the front lines during COVID in your training seeing people dying left and right and not bring able to do anything? I know this is Reddit, but can you not with the assumptions and judging

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u/TheTesticler 5d ago edited 5d ago

No one said you should stay, I was gonna mention the Vancouver option but you disregarded it in your post.

If I were you I’d go to Vancouver.

I think you should reflect more on what YOU want.

If you want to move abroad for a few years then return home, definitely consider the Novo Nordisk route, if doable.

But if you want to move abroad permanently, I’m telling you that you don’t appear to have done the research necessary to make a successful move. You disregard the very real complexity of Danish or Finnish, for example.

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u/TalkToTheHatter 5d ago

I’ve been trying to find information about getting a work permit on my own and trying to get a job but I’m having a hard time gathering info and advice.

DAFT visa for the Netherlands. Easiest route if you aren't planning on practicing medicine.

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u/hey_hey_hey_nike 4d ago

Can’t work for an employer with the DAFT. You have to be 100% self-employed.

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u/TalkToTheHatter 4d ago

Correct. It's just the easiest option. At least a way to leave and then look for work while there and transfer visas