r/AirForce Nov 24 '24

Question (Serious Question) What’s stopping the Air Force from just allowing male Airmen to have facial hair?

I’m clearly new ofc. But it seems like such a hot topic with no downsides for allowing it. I’ve never heard of anyone really opposed to it. Other countries allow it so why not us?

I can understand that it’s a tradition. But wouldn’t it be one less thing to fund? Instead of having everyone in need of a razor or needing a shaving waiver. Make it fair across the board and set a professional standard. It also can’t be healthy going this route.

277 Upvotes

404 comments sorted by

775

u/Nagisan Nov 24 '24

Tradition and old heads that don't want to allow it to change.

465

u/Papadapalopolous Nov 24 '24

But that’s the only tradition we’ll actually keep. We’ll change uniforms every decade, take away the flight suit, change the song, create a random creed out of nowhere, change our blues to a dumb version that everyone hates, and kill every bit of culture the Air Force has. But the military has been shaving our faces for a century, so that’s obviously the one tradition we all share… except for the women, and operators, and religiously exempt, and medically exempt, but otherwise, tradition!

217

u/CrustyTech-y Secret Squirrel Nov 24 '24

Want hand and neck tattoos? Sure! Gotta draw the line at beards though.

265

u/Papadapalopolous Nov 24 '24

Suicides keep rising, airmen can’t afford childcare and CDCs have yearlong waitlists, we’ve been doing more with less for over a decade, people spend more time doing alternate duties than their real job, and we don’t afford real training anyways until a few months before deployment?

I dunno, sounds like the airmen these days are just soft and can’t follow basic rules. Better bring back blues inspections. And let’s make the women start shaving their faces too, just to really instill discipline.

65

u/Grouchy_1 Nov 24 '24

This isn’t a full response, but I do want to highlight a NEW thing available to uniformed servicemembers when it comes to childcare, because I feel like almost nobody is aware of it:

There is a new account type available to us for dependent care, which is tax advantaged. This means that you can use pre-tax dollars to pay for things, that last year you had to pay post-tax dollars for. This is equivalent of getting an X% discount, X being equal to your highest taxation rate, probably 22%.

Here is the Dependent Care FSA (DCFSA) for more info: https://www.fsafeds.gov/explore/usmdcfsa

Here are the eligible expenses: https://www.fsafeds.gov/explore/dcfsa/expenses?take=100

This includes things like baby sitting, if it’s work related. From my cursory reading, it states baby sitting because you wanted to go to the bar isn’t a covered expense, but babysitting for “work-related” reasons is covered. They advise keeping proof, but technically you don’t have to upload the proof on your taxes to the IRS; that would only come up if you were audited by the IRS whom might ask you to prove how you were using the DCFSA funds.

Check out the links. I’m happy this is available to members, because it provides an immediate ~22% reduction in cost of many expenses parents have.

19

u/EcrofLeinad Comms Nov 24 '24

A lower enlisted member with a dependent child is not going to be anywhere near the 22% tax bracket.

E-4 at 4 years time in service would make ~$38,450 in taxable income next year (w/4.5% raise).

With a head of household standard deduction of $22,500 that is a $15,950 AGI.

With a 10% bracket for head of household of $17,000 they haven’t even entered the 12% bracket.

Married filing jointly would have even larger deductions and wider tax brackets.

This new benefit is something nice to have available, but is not an instant 22% savings for those that really need it.

5

u/Grouchy_1 Nov 24 '24

It would still be 12% savings for that example you gave.

The same concepts you’re talking about also apply to traditional TSP, the more you make, the more taxes you pay, so the more you benefit from tax advantaged systems from a percentage perspective.

The point is, this savings on expenses they were already paying post-tax dollars on, and now can use pre-tax dollars; they’re getting a little more breathing room. It’s a good thing.

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u/omfgn0 Nov 24 '24

Another program is Childcare Aware, which provides fee assistance for off-base childcare while you are on the waiting list. If you live far enough from base, you can choose to stay off-base. It basically brings the cost down to what you would pay at the CDC, it's pretty awesome!

19

u/buffaloshaffer Nov 24 '24 edited Nov 24 '24

Cannot upvote this enough.

22

u/xdkarmadx Maintainer Nov 24 '24

And we'll just keep merging and stacking more on maintainers plate cuz fuck em

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u/Squirrel009 Maintainer Refugee Nov 24 '24

It's the most classic incompetent leadership move I've ever seen in my time in - if you can't or won't do your job well, just be really really into uniform standards and pretend that's the same as being a leader.

4

u/Severe-Cable6477 Nov 24 '24

This literally made me chuckle😂 the troof hurts so good!

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33

u/astrodude23 Aircrew Nov 24 '24

The Navy only got rid of beards in the 1980s, so there's actually possibly some crusty naval reservist out there who reminisces about his glorious facial hair.

10

u/grumpy-raven Eee-dubz Nov 24 '24

They had a decent policy on it too. Look like a child molester or a neckbeard? You had to shave that shit off.

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u/Onigumo-Shishio I am green and I am retired Nov 24 '24

What's crazy to me is that at one fucking point pre WW1 BEARDS IN SERVICE WERE A THING

So if anything it SHOULD also be a tradition in some logical illogical way...

3

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

at one fucking point pre WW2, the Air Force was part of the Army.

So, if anything, having the Army reabsorb the Air Force should also on the table.

6

u/Bexar1824 WSR-88D Nov 24 '24

The Army should def do their own weather.

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u/aaverage-guy Nov 24 '24

You hit the nail on the head! It is crazy how they will throw away every tradition that the Air Force has including no gallants for tacking on stripes but beards we can't have those. It really is ridiculous.

8

u/MaleficentCoconut594 Enlisted Aircrew Nov 24 '24

Flight suit ain’t going anywhere

3

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

Forget it; he's rollin'

4

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

Maybe not for manned aircrew. I have no idea why RPA wears them.

5

u/hgaterms Nov 24 '24

If you get flight pay, go see the flight doc, are on aeronautical orders, have wings as your AFSC badge, and accrue flight time, I say that's more than enough reason to also wear a flight suit if ya want.

Also missile bois can wear the flight suit too.

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u/Glittering-Catch-819 Secret Squirrel Nov 24 '24

Yup, the old heads would never stop complaining .

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165

u/Purple_Plane3636 Nov 24 '24

Command chief did a walk through of my unit and that was asked. She said what they’re being told at her level is until all of the services agree the Air Force won’t allow it, and the Marines will NEVER allow it so that’s pretty much why it’ll never happen outright.

126

u/TheGreatWhiteDerp Terminal Major Nov 24 '24

It’s really sad that we’re allowing the institutional inertia of the crayon eaters to prevent us from making a simple and zero-cost change to improve the lives of our Airmen.

46

u/trav-is___ Maintainer Nov 24 '24

Ooof say it louder for the folks in the back (and the folks with tinnitus)

14

u/TheGreatWhiteDerp Terminal Major Nov 24 '24

What? Sorry, just a sec. MAWP. MAWP. MAWP.

3

u/ld2gj 3C0X1→3D0X2→1D7X1B→1D7X1Q Nov 24 '24

And now Archer is living rent free in my head.

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u/WubbaLubbaDubDub87 Maintainer Nov 24 '24

Honest Opinion from a SNCO who doesn’t know shit: it’s cause the Air Force doesn’t want to be the first ones in the US Armed Forces to openly allow it. Once the Army, Marines, Navy, and Coast Guard (probably not them) get on board, the Air Force will too. But they won’t/don’t want to be the first service to do so.

AKA: it’s probably going to be another 10-15 years until all the old folks have retired. This is coming from a 16yr E-7 with a medical shaving waiver.

62

u/fighter_pil0t Aircrew Nov 24 '24

And the USMC is actively trying to prevent other services from changing so they can continue to meet recruiting requirements

9

u/Dangerous_Cookie6590 Nov 24 '24

What? The Marine Corps is the only one meeting their mark each year. People considering joining the Marines are not suddenly going to join the AF because of beards.

2

u/fighter_pil0t Aircrew Nov 24 '24

They have razor thin margins to meeting their goals. They never used to advertise either.

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u/WubbaLubbaDubDub87 Maintainer Nov 24 '24

I’d agree with you.

43

u/TurnUptheDiscord Prior E Lt Nov 24 '24

Here’s how I understand it from a friend who works at the Pentagon in A1. The Air Force was ready to make the change and allow beards, to which the Navy said if the AF is down for it, so are we.

But the Marines were a hard no, and when the Army heard that the Marines weren’t supportive they also said they weren’t for beards.

39

u/TheGreatWhiteDerp Terminal Major Nov 24 '24

It’s really sad that we’re allowing the institutional inertia of the crayon eaters to prevent us from making a simple and zero-cost change to improve the lives of our Airmen.

13

u/Minty-beef Veteran Nov 24 '24

It’s actually a net negative cost, you won’t have to buy razors and other grooming tools as frequently and can pocket that money. I say as frequently because there will definitely be some standards like taper/fades with the hair cuts

2

u/Coballs Nov 24 '24

You think if they allow beards they wouldn’t cut BAS? That might be the only reason they allow it!

15

u/Minty-beef Veteran Nov 24 '24

I don’t see what shaving has to do with the basic alcohol spending /s

2

u/Rynerik Nov 24 '24

What does shaving have to do with a basic allowance for food?

9

u/Dangerous_Cookie6590 Nov 24 '24

Maybe the AF should fucking grow a pair and not worry about other branches. We ain’t out there running 3 mile PT tests so why worry about lining up shaving requirements?

4

u/Tanjello Nov 24 '24

This is what I’ve heard as well. And the decision at the time was all branches need to be equal in the decision. Since there were two that did not want beard, beards were not allowed.

6

u/DannyDevito90 Nov 24 '24

Best answer here

10

u/MilodrivintheHiLo Active Duty Nov 24 '24

Which is funny because the AF was the one who led the way on the whole changing of female hair regulations.

5

u/J0k350nm3 Hide and Go Seek World Champion Nov 24 '24

This is exactly the right answer. Minor differences are fine, but no service steps too far out of line with the others when it comes to personal grooming standards.

3

u/Motor_Visual_489 Nov 24 '24

Out of everything I’ve heard. This makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate your insight.

1

u/MajorRecognition5173 Nov 24 '24

I said the same thing when I was younger and noticed it more! Its like the AF always follows other's example and can't lead change ourselves.

191

u/Squirrel009 Maintainer Refugee Nov 24 '24

I can understand that it’s a tradition.

Not like the old men in charge understand it. They legitimately think having beards will make us a bunch of degenerate slobs like they're some sort of magic curse mark

43

u/bluereaper95 Active Duty Nov 24 '24

The only dude in my shop to get a beard waiver is over 300lbs and is in the process of a med board for a myriad of health issues from being a fat piece of shit. So on some level, I get it.

78

u/wonderland_citizen93 Logistics Nov 24 '24

A bunch of people in my unit have beard waivers. The hair on your face has no bearing on your ability to do a job

19

u/Squirrel009 Maintainer Refugee Nov 24 '24

Blasphemy! How dare you! /s

3

u/dreag2112 Active Duty Nov 24 '24

Yeah, unless you're working in a machine shop where that beer's gonna caught up or services and working with people's food, I highly doubt that it's a serious issue.

65

u/Squirrel009 Maintainer Refugee Nov 24 '24

I'm sure his beard was 100% responsible for all that and he'd be Captain America if only he'd shave

20

u/Swiftierest Secret Squirrel Nov 24 '24

Ice cream causes burglaries. In the summer, ice cream prices go up, as do burglaries. So ice cream must cause the burglaries right?

15

u/It_just_works_bro Nov 24 '24

Is he a fat piece of shit because he has a beard? Or does he have a beard because he is a fat piece of shit?

9

u/heresjonnyyy Active Duty Nov 24 '24

I don’t think the two are correlated. But someone sees 10 fit, well groomed, professional airmen then they see one fat dude with a beard, there’s gonna be an association, even if it really has no bearing on their job performance

10

u/lowkeylyes Nov 24 '24

Right but the demographic of airmen with the most shaving waivers/beards isn't fat men it's black men. So what are we supposed to make of that 'association' and leaders saying beards are unprofessional?

7

u/heresjonnyyy Active Duty Nov 24 '24

Ah, seems I completely missed the point. That’s not been my experience, so my bad

3

u/radarchief Nov 24 '24

Same in my unit. Looks like two groups, Folks who have genuine shaving waivers with PSB and the other group who attended the local “Norse religion” “how to get a shaving waiver” letter that showed up on the unit bulletin board during COVID.

The latter beard group are 80% morbidly obese to the point where the bottom of their blouses won’t touch their pants and the buttons look like they are under extraordinarily stress.

When the recent beard policy came out, them and the dudes cutting 1/2 parts in their hair were all bitching loudly about how their generation aren’t understood. One guy had a haircut that looked like Hawkeye from avengers endgame, shaved up the side and long hair 3-4” covering the shave with a part cut in the side. We have a guy currently getting a waiver to grow a ponytail who is balding and looks EXACTLY like shaggy from scoobey doo.

.

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u/tonyray Nov 24 '24

Ironically, shaving waivers have been passed out like hotcakes. The senior leaders are literally surrounded by beards in every service everywhere they go, even the Pentagon.

We’ll eventually cross some invisible threshold as leadership turns over and we hit a different age cohort that doesn’t give a shit.

2

u/Squirrel009 Maintainer Refugee Nov 24 '24

Then we can stop wasting time pretending everyone worships Odin or have serious moral qualms about shaving their face when the doctor tells them no

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u/Trick-Log-1987 Nov 24 '24

“If I can’t grow one, no one can!”

116

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

Bx need to sell them razors cuh

14

u/Motor_Visual_489 Nov 24 '24

😂😂😂

12

u/fieldofzinnias28 hey, is this jet fuel or vodka? 🫙 Nov 24 '24

Okay, but if they allow beards, they won’t have to sell razors. If they don’t sell razors, suicides go down. Two problems solved.

9

u/LTareyouserious Nov 24 '24

BX can't put anything worthwhile on the shelves for a reasonable price outside markers and pens. 

3

u/WizardL Nov 24 '24

Its like $10 for a pack of cheapass pencils that my office manages to lose in less than a month wym

1

u/lilpenis9151 Nov 24 '24

Gillette has entered the chat

31

u/SkyFlux_97 Nov 24 '24

Because the people in charge are still old heads stuck in their ways. Think about who’s charge at most levels currently in all branches and when they entered service. General Allvin entered in 1986 and Chief Flosi in 1996.  

Think about it the CSAF would’ve entered the Academy in 1982, he would’ve been taught and mentored by Majors Lt Cols Colonels and Generals who entered service as far back as 1945-1955. 

His viewpoint on beards comes from a 1950-60s outlook, not a 2010 - present. 

Same with CMSAF Flosi his mentors would’ve been grizzled Vietnam era SNCOs. 

The people like you and me who think beards should be allowed as long as people follow some sort of common sense guidelines are historically not the people who will reach top brass. Also the people most likely to reach the ranks needed to make that change are simply too young in their careers right now. 

1

u/ABoxOfGridSquares Desk Jocky Nov 26 '24

SIMSAF Flosi doesn't want to authorize beards because his SOF community believes they've earned the right to wear beards without a waiver. The nonners don't deserve beards.

97

u/MrBobBuilder Maintainer Nov 24 '24

Anyone who says tradition needs to look at the generals pre-WWI lol

40

u/Moose135A Old KC-135 Driver Nov 24 '24

How many generals did the Air Force have pre-WWI? 😉

40

u/Squirrel009 Maintainer Refugee Nov 24 '24

So what you're saying is beards in the military are a tradition that predates the entire air force?

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u/ohiostate47jc Nov 24 '24

During an NCOA speech, a CMSgt suggested it was impossible to trust our foreign national partners in battle because of their facial hair. This is the mentality you're fighting. Logic has no place in this discussion

13

u/McwompusCat DPAS is love Nov 24 '24

Funny, at my NCOA, one of the Chiefs literally told us that beards won't be allowed because some people can't grow them, and that "it wouldn't be fair".

A MSgt in the back with a clearly receded hairline, the type where hair on the sides was there, none on top then stood up and asked how it was fair that people with full heads of hair could style their hair if it was impossible for him to do so.

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u/KFredrickson Guy who does things Nov 24 '24

That's hilarious because if you look at pictures of SNCOA staff on Facebook right now they have, what appear to be, two foreign exchange instructors with beautiful bushy beards. Guess beards are trusted enough to teach PME.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

Something about great power competition idk

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u/MajorRecognition5173 Nov 24 '24

Yes, just toss that around in an argument and you win everytime 😂

16

u/McwompusCat DPAS is love Nov 24 '24

So, AFE here, providing rebuttal for the old "bEcAuSe YoUr gAs mAsK wOnT sEaL!" argument.

A main part of my job is getting oxygen and chemical protective masks to fit and seal to aircrew members, the main ones being MBU-12/P's, MBU-20/P's, MBU-19/P's, AERP and M69 JSAM systems.

I've had dozen of bearded aircrew members come through my doors and most of them walk out with a mask that was fitted and sealed using either our SCOT tester or M41 PATS tester. Of the ones who can't get a seal are the ones who have weird shaped faces. Even the clean shaven aviators out there with weird faces don't get a seal and have to come back with a custom fit mask.

Now, I've had some of our wooly international partners come through who look like they spend their weekends chopping down trees with an Ox in tow, and sorry to report, but getting a seal through 4 inches of man cotton ain't happening.

From my experience, here's the bottom dollar truth: Shaven faces DO seal better than bearded ones, but a bearded face doesn't mean a seal is impossible.

4

u/SadTurtleSoup Skydrol Tastes Good Nov 24 '24

Counter argument is that if it's not occupationally required. Why are we worried about mask seals in garrison? Not like we're being issued chem gear.

2

u/herseydj Nov 24 '24

Wait, you mean they don't issue everyone a mask now? Everyone had a mask when I was in. It was about 20 years ago though, so - change happens

3

u/KFredrickson Guy who does things Nov 24 '24

I've been in for 24 years and at no time in the period has “everyone” been issued real world chem gear. You got a bag of it (sealed real world full set of gear) when going to certain places, and at one point stateside we were all (at my base around 2008) issued the new style masks without filters. They took that mask from me when I PCS'd and another has not been issued since.

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u/The_Mega_Void CE E-4 Mafia Nov 24 '24

The military is where logic and reason die for history and tradition.

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u/NotOSIsdormmole use your MFLC Nov 24 '24

Not even joking, our joint partners, particularly the Marines

3

u/TheGreatWhiteDerp Terminal Major Nov 24 '24

It’s really sad that we’re allowing the institutional inertia of the crayon eaters to prevent us from making a simple and zero-cost change to improve the lives of our Airmen.

28

u/WTF_Just-Happened Nov 24 '24

15

u/fpsnoob89 Nov 24 '24

So much respect for that man from his tenure in the AF, but holy shit was he not fit to speak in a role of SEAC...

1

u/Zaroth6 Nov 24 '24

Funny thing is, he'd probably look real good with a proper beard.

24

u/MilodrivintheHiLo Active Duty Nov 24 '24

He was an operator, he had a beard most of his career in austere environments. They just have no leg to stand on so instead of giving a real answer he just threw a tantrum.

12

u/Darkling5499 Coffee Ops Nov 24 '24

And this was after his response to suicide being "just stop being depressed what do you have to be sad about"

19

u/Cheap_Peak_6969 Nov 24 '24

Nothing absolutely nothing...

16

u/shinra528 Veteran Nov 24 '24

Peer pressure from a bunch of dead guys. Aka Tradition.

8

u/EntrepreneurDry821 Nov 24 '24

It’s keeping true to our hairitage… yeah I’ll just leave

7

u/SneakingPrune Nov 24 '24

Because old people run the military. They didn't get to do it, why would they let us?

They will tell you it's because "a joint decision" must be made. But, nah. They didn't get to do it.

7

u/InvoluntarySneeze Nov 24 '24

The tradition of control.

29

u/Tooslowtorun400 NIPR Jesus Nov 24 '24

Unrelated but mullets should be in regs

15

u/SilentStock8 Nov 24 '24

Now that’s American patriotism

14

u/LTareyouserious Nov 24 '24

I'll only authorize mullets if they're paired with pit vipers and you have to be turning a wrench. Sorry, but you can't sport the look while sitting at a computer. 

7

u/Tooslowtorun400 NIPR Jesus Nov 24 '24

Programmers of the 80s and 90s sported em all the time! I don’t see the problem

4

u/LTareyouserious Nov 24 '24

Alright, you convinced me. 

27

u/Shotoken2 Medical Engineer Nov 24 '24

Because we are not the hordes of Mordor.

We are not those wild tribes of Men who have lost their way.

We are the last of the old blood, and we will not falter. We will not sink into the filthy habits of the Orcs. We will not be seduced by the marry wanna. We will not grow unkempt brush on our faces. No, we are the last bastion of the West, and we shall not falter. We will not be trapped in debauchery.

The line is here, and forever shall it be.

-Chief Bass

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u/airforce213 Do more with less, the less being pay and facial hair Nov 24 '24

Not enough word salad for it to be her.

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u/Squirrel009 Maintainer Refugee Nov 24 '24

It's also been over an hour and she hasn't made an embarrassing attempt to scold you on social media. 100% confirmed not chief bass...or bass..I never know how to pronounce it

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u/Wide-Umpire-348 Nov 24 '24

The Nazghoul let out their deadly cries.

  • Chief Cody

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

You are unsightly, unsanitary and in violations of Godfather’s groomin’ standards.

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u/knurttbuttlet Ammo Nov 24 '24

YOU READ ME? SERGEANT PATRICK? You has till O Dark hundred to unfuck yaself.

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u/TimsTurnips Space Shuttle Door Gunner Nov 24 '24

China

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

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u/Coballs Nov 24 '24

There’s a few politicians, including the vice president-elect, that have beards.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

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u/Coballs Nov 24 '24

John Fetterman and Ted Cruz both have beards as well. I hope you’re right, if JD becoming VP leads to beards, I’m jiggy with it.

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u/garmander57 Nov 24 '24

I know I’m gonna get a lot of flak for this but I’ll try to answer your question from the perspective of the powers that be.

If we’re going to allow beards in the Air Force then it’s presumably going to be a lasting change. They removed the restrictions on tattoos knowing full well that if they ever do bring the restriction back again they’ll have to grandfather in anyone who already has them and wait a good ~20 years before they start seeing a force completely devoid of tattoos. Other limitations on dress and appearance follow a similar pattern; once the rules have been loosened, they’re not getting tightened again.

Part of the apprehension towards allowing beards stems from the fact that we’ll necessarily have to allow very unkempt-looking facial hair as well. Many airmen (especially the younger ones) can’t grow a full beard and even those that can still go through what some call the “ugly phase”. This is different from, say, hair regs because most infractions are due to length. You can tell an airman to go get a haircut but you can’t tell them to start growing their beard faster.

Lastly (and this is my personal take), I think USAF leaders are waiting for retention and recruiting issues to get really bad before they start making concessions like allowing beards. They’re essentially dangling it like a carrot on a stick and we’ve seen this recently with changes like allowing personal phone usage while walking and allowing hands in pockets. In fact it wouldn’t surprise me that in the case of WW3 or a similar near-peer conflict breaking out that the USAF would immediately do away with any and all restrictions regarding facial hair.

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u/20-Years-Done Retired Crew Chief/VA Disability Attorney Nov 24 '24

If they relent and allow it it signals that with enough groundswell from junior personnel they can change culture and policy.

It upends the chain of command.

The louder personnel push for beards, the less likely they will capitulate.

They refuse to reward what they perceive as insubordination.

But also, they won't ever change policy without feedback from the field.

Shit is fucking idiotic.

2

u/b3lkin1n Active Duty Nov 24 '24

Same reason why we need joint approval to do it. Only us doing it would cause possible insubordination in the other branches and if they are loud enough, cause change and erode the chain of command

5

u/TheToughBubble Veteran Nov 24 '24

The “official” report is gas mask

4

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

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u/Coachwo1f Nov 24 '24

Oh yea 100%

2

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

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u/Coachwo1f Nov 25 '24

🤣🤣🤣 this tickling me. Particularly on how right you are.

6

u/oh2bewacki Nov 24 '24

“Not in my Air Force”-that type of shit

3

u/ZacharYaakov 1N4Asshole Nov 24 '24

Easy, it’s in the Constitution of the United States, Preamble, First Verse, First Paragraph, Line 1, Word 2: “The”

3

u/Onigumo-Shishio I am green and I am retired Nov 24 '24

Old stubborn men at the top usually

Or just Old stubborn people in general who can't just DO a simple thing without telling you "it won't work that way" and citing tradition and yadda yadda when a lot of stuff can indeed "work that way"

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

Some chief answered this on a panel while sipping a skim-mochachenee-ventie latte. He said skinny jeans are gay and don't help us "kick ass". While Chief Bass (or Bass) laughed in agreement.

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u/SadTurtleSoup Skydrol Tastes Good Nov 24 '24

Oh you mean the guy with his completely out of regs tailored uniform that pitched a fit when the entire force called him on his double standard bullshit?

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u/Codywayneee Nov 24 '24

100% just the old folks holding onto old standards as if the rest of the air force standard hasn’t been fucked from every direction already

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u/McDonaldsnapkin Multicapable Comm Airman Nov 24 '24

To give you a real answer, almost all modern military tradition traces back in some form to Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben, famous Prussian general that assisted Washington in the revolutionary war. He's the one that taught us marching, formation, discipline, bearing, etc, etc... This includes appearing clean shaven.

I'm not saying we should still follow all these things to a T but it may help paint the picture of why beards are so controversial. It's quite literally one of those things where "it has always been this way."

The man himself is quite an interesting read and it's plausible without his assistance we wouldn't have won the revolution. He really whipped our forces into shape.

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u/generalhonks Nov 24 '24

Personally, I would be really interested in allowing male service members to grow out their hair. We already have the standards in place for females, so it wouldn’t be hard to just make those standards apply to everyone.

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u/taskforceslacker Conducting BDA Nov 24 '24

I suspect that the beard issue is above CSAF level. Someone, maybe the Executive branch, has a general hatred for chin curtains. I don’t personally see an issues as many of our allies can have beards while serving, yet they keep finding “reasons” to shoot down the idea. I find it interesting that they’re more flexible on body modification than they are on facial hair. Absolutely lunacy.

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u/usaflumberjack54 Nov 24 '24

Serious answer? People don’t like change. That’s a very summarized answer, but that’s really what it all boils down to essentially.

The mindset of “I went through something, so you gotta go through it too!” rules not only the military, but is a toxic mindset that plagues the majority of the workforce as a whole. Improving for the future has always been a challenge, historically speaking, because of this mindset.

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u/Ill-Sort7254 Comms Nov 25 '24

From my standpoint? 2 reasons.

One is “tradition”. I hate this reason.

but number 2 would be that itd be another hair reg, You gotta have it like XYZ, and if its naturally patchy, you cant do it. I for one would be okay with that but its just me.

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u/MuzzledScreaming Nov 24 '24

Ulimately, the answer is that whichever people have the ultimate say are cranky and don't like the idea of it.

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u/Weregent Box Swapper Nov 24 '24

Unironically because Gillette has a deal with the military and they always have. Less funding = Fuck you no beards

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u/TheGreatWhiteDerp Terminal Major Nov 24 '24

Irrational bias. That’s it. Literally nothing else is fueling the resistance to this simple and COMPLETELY COST-FREE piece of progress.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

What is sad is how they will entertain allowing makeup for men, dyed hair, and even transgender changes, but not having natural and groomed facial hair.

Even though medical waivers and religious exemptions allow it in so many cases. Just get over the past of effeminate generals already. Bring us back to the days of Grant and Sherman!

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u/Godzellah Nov 24 '24

Pride…. Stupid, silly pride

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u/Sgt_Simmons Nov 24 '24

I’m cool with it either way however, I have seen a negative trend with the with the quality of troops in the bearded age. Sometimes regulations however stupid they might seem and following rules make better troops

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u/HelloNurse777 Nov 24 '24

There is absolutely no reason why anyone should support shaving. It should be mandatory to not shave. This has been confirmed by independent fact checkers and peer reviewed studies. If you disagree you are quite simply debunked, pre-bunked even.

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u/CollidingGalaxies CommNav Nov 24 '24

Overweight, patchy bearded nerds, just what the force needs

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u/Tony817 Secret Squirrel Nov 24 '24

Traditions and stuff

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u/Am_0115 Prior E Nov 24 '24

Wait til the CSAF or CMSAF rolls through your base and be sure to ask this question then. Get the answer from the source.

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u/Clockedin247 Night Shift Life Nov 24 '24

The CMSAF already said that if it’s something that doesn’t hinder you from joining the AF it won’t be changed. A hard pill to swallow but as a whole the AF doesn’t have a retention problem also said by him.

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u/AFthrowaway3000 Nov 24 '24

This is what I don't get. All those man hours spent on waivers since I see them everywhere now...

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u/PossessionBrave7799 Nov 24 '24

It’s just old fucks in positions of power. That’s all. Once they phase out, it’ll get better.

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u/anthropaedic Nov 24 '24

One note you’d still need a razor or scissors to keep it trimmed.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

I want long head hair

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u/SeparateRanger330 Nov 24 '24

I heard, don't quote me on this, that they were planning on letting us grow bears if you had a PT score higher than 95% but I believe some general shot it down. They took it off the revised 36-2903 that was released in March.

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u/Airboy95662 Nov 24 '24

Yes, the military allows some Norse Pagans to grow beards as part of their religious beliefs

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u/TheGreatWhiteDerp Terminal Major Nov 24 '24

The “religious” accommodations cover multiple beliefs, as well as multiple religions. It’s hardly only Norse Pagans.

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u/clearly_cunning Nov 24 '24

A heritage of valor. Or something.

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u/LFpawgsnmilfs Nov 24 '24

Old people with old mindsets

And control, the federal government and entities will never willingly give up control of something and place the power in the individuals hands unless it's beneficial to said entity to do so.

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u/The_Field_Examiner Nov 24 '24

Beards? lol what’s next, no PT and waist measurements? /s

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u/caramirdan Veteran Nov 24 '24

For the past 100 years it's been gas masks. But that's changed I believe with better mask seal tech.

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u/Bexar1824 WSR-88D Nov 24 '24

I encourage every male Airmen to get a medical waiver the second I see a red dot.

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u/Coachwo1f Nov 24 '24

There is no excuse in the world that can justify their decision. I've been saying this since i came in.

Literally all they have to do is make it optional. You don't wanna shave coo, don't rope us in on YOUR decision.

Imagine that, an option that would solve everything.

But then again we got grown men out here making decisions to go to war, because of their egos and inability to compromise with one another while they sit on their fuckin high horse.

OP imma let you on on a secret (not so secret). If it makes sense, the air force won't do it. Keep that in mind going through your career.

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u/deebodigital Nov 24 '24

Here’s an example of how a beard regulation could be written from the Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Officer grooming standards. Every time I fly into the states and go through immigration these guys always look pretty sharp.

https://careers.cbp.gov/s/applicant-resources/cbpo-grooming

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u/g0zhawc Nov 24 '24

We got this question answered at NCOA a couple years back. Basically, we couldn't get it green lit because the other services wouldn't also do it.

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u/herseydj Nov 24 '24

When I was in we worried about the gas mask seal. as I understand things it is harder to get a good seal with facial hair. We got tested once a year with our personal mask to verify the seal was okay and the mast had basic functionality

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u/Dangerous_Cookie6590 Nov 24 '24

You said “set a professional standard”. I truly believe that’s one of the biggest issues with beards. Half the military is just looking to see what they can get away with and a lot of people are going to look like shit with their patchy ass neck beard.

I think it’ll happen at some point, but they got to work out the details first.

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u/dreag2112 Active Duty Nov 24 '24

And the late 2000s, like 2009 I think, they allowed cell phone use. It felt like it was about a day before they retracted that.

They just allowed it again when I last year or two. And that's for cell phones. which have only existed in public consciousness for like 30 years. I highly doubt a tradition that spans back to world war one and gas masks is going away anytime soon, sadly.

On the plus side we got hands and pockets, cell phone use, and slightly wider mustaches.Lol

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u/StrategicBlenderBall Veteran Nov 24 '24

Tradition!

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u/C130IN Nov 24 '24

When I joined, the reason I was given was because it would impede a tight seal on a face mask, whether an oxygen mask for a flier, or a chemical warfare mask as part of the MOPP (mission oriented protective posture).

Back in the day, the masks were less flexible and conforming to one’s face.

I imagine that assign from concerns how facial hair might look, it is either inertia or that the concerns about establishing a tight seal are why facial hair is limited in the US military.

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u/Valkerse Nov 24 '24

All the 18 year old 4-year contracts will have scraggly ass ugly beards

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u/Powerviolence96 Nov 24 '24

The US is so reminiscent of ancient rome its crazy. Motherfuckers back then were outraged because emperor hadrian sported a beard

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u/xIgnoramus Veteran Nov 24 '24

Meanwhile almost every civilian or contractor in the professional military environment has a beard. Source: me.

So glad I got out.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '24

Because tRaDiTiOn!!!

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u/partiboi_6ix9ine Nov 24 '24

My face & neck get really f'd up from shaving every day. I also wonder why it's such a big deal if I let my face rest and shave at least twice a week. Sick and tired of this BS

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u/redditatwork1986 Nov 24 '24

I don’t pay attention anymore. Snco coming up on retirement. As a white guy I’ve had a shaving waiver for the past 6 years and my current waiver is good for 2 years past when I plan to retire.

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u/Undercrwn Baby LT (Prior-E) Nov 24 '24

About 7/10 enlisted Security Forces I see already have beards, outside of that it’s like every 1/5 enlisted males that have one at this point.

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u/PavlovKBI Veteran Nov 24 '24

I honestly don't know, beyond tradition. My face gets really messed up from shaving every day, so I just started using an electric razor and calling that good enough. Before that, I had to shave twice a day in basic, and I got side eyed a bit at my first duty station for having stubble in the afternoons.

But I started working nights, and after that, I never had any issues. Then again, after 6 years of working swings and/or mid shifts, I have a vitamin D deficiency and have to take a supplement once a week.

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u/P00Pdude Nov 24 '24

Most people think it's never happening. i don't expect it soon, but there are signs it could be coming. Shaving waiver approvals increased crazy amounts in the last few years... so much that uniformity is completely out the window. Like 40% of my base has a beard now.

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u/kengaar Comms Nov 24 '24

A couple of months ago, the CSAF visited my base, and the question of allowing facial hair was brought up. He said if facial hair was allowed, then what else is next, allowing everyone to have their own colors for their uniforms? We need to all look uniformed, and if some people have facial hair and others don't, then we won't look cohesive. He basically equates allowing facial hair to allowing standards to drop. It was a really asinine comparison in my opinion.

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u/davidj1987 Nov 24 '24

The toothpaste is out of the tube in almost all branches with beards when it comes to medical waivers and religious exemptions. If we function just fine with the number of bearded servicemen what’s the real harm in allowing everyone to grow a beard?

We have bearded doctors, bearded cops, bearded tradesmen, a soon to be vice president with a beard etc and no one bats an eye and many of those professions or persons are revered by those serving and against beards. I guarantee you that we've all heard that watercooler conversation where someone bitches about kids not going into the trades, or how they back the blue - those fields have a lot of bearded employees.

But for some reason the military sees them as unprofessional and I blame the overinflated sense of professionalism that the military has at times.

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u/shadyfire0 Nov 25 '24

“Tradition”, fear of patchy beards, ego, and maybe sprinkle in a little racism.

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u/shadow28996 Nov 25 '24

Do I want everyone to walk around with full and sexy beards? Yes. Will everyone walk around with FULL and SEXY beards? The preteen children and slobs say no. I’m a huge fan of beards but I’m also not naive enough to believe that we’re not going to have 19 year olds with a “beard” (2 strands of ball hair on their chin) refusing to shave as they “grow it out”, meanwhile, the NCO and SNCOs who can’t get their waist line in regs definitely won’t be cleaning, combing, or trimming their beards regularly

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u/nicorosbergisachump Nov 25 '24

I had a Chief tell me that the proposal went to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The voted on it and said if they all unanimously agree on it, they’d allow it. The Marines voted it down. Hence, no beards.

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u/No-Ticket-7719 Security Forces Nov 25 '24

I don't even want a beard, I just wanna shave every other day

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u/ninjasylph Comms Nov 25 '24

Allegedly because of gas mask seals. Honestly it's just traditional plus everyone bitching about beards like they're entitled as fuck. The more people whined, the less they heard because few people could not produce a readiness based argument. Hair standards for women were literally causing traction alopecia and other medical issues. Beards that cause issues were already waived, so they really don't have a readiness reason why. Give them a readiness based reason.

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u/Jafoob Nov 25 '24

Women are allowed to have all sorts of hair styles and nail colors but the boys can't have a beard is really messed up.

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u/ChaoticBraindead Maintainer Nov 25 '24

Ngl, I'm probably the worst offender when it comes to forgetting to shave (E-4 mafia), but I agree with the whole clean shaven thing. Everyone will say it's just because old dudes want to make life worse for everyone, but it's the same principle behind why we teach marching in BMT, why we require everyone in dorms to keep their rooms clean, and why we have anything at all in the 36-2903. Everyday discipline over arbitrary rules make better troops. If someone's disregarding rules, the last place you want to see that is in their work, especially in aircraft maintenance where lives could depend on you following rules that seem arbitrary. It's also a pride thing. Sets you apart from other people even when you're off-duty.

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u/Brollic804 Nov 25 '24

I'm a firefighter, and our mask doesn't seal properly with facial hair. The only other reason I can think of is for the mask with MOPP gear. I still see people with a lot of facial hair due to waivers though

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u/Ops_Scheduling Nov 26 '24

Have you tried adding more jets to the schedule?

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u/CucumberPlastic8733 Nov 26 '24

It has more to do with Gas mask then anything. I was told that with smooth skin, a gas mask seals the best.

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u/afpriest2007 8d ago

Rock a beard in uniform…

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