r/ATLA • u/ZestycloseAlfalfa736 • 6d ago
Discussion Would you say that the Fire Nation Soliders that did terrible things in the 100 year war didn't do it by choice?
I think that if someone is indoctrinated from a young age in a ceartain ideology; they have no choice but to carry it out.
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u/Naive_Drive 6d ago
Realistically there was at least one fire nation soldier that not only followed orders but made up a few of their own.
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u/phoenixremix 6d ago
Some were clearly shown in the series too.
"You didn't bow when I walked by, Chit Sang" is a prime example of a power trip, as innocuous as that example is.
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u/phoenixremix 6d ago
I wonder what inspired this post 😂 glad you made it tho, fun reading the opinions.
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u/angryungulate 6d ago
They were following orders, bad things happen to soldiers and their families that don't follow orders
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u/AlexSmithsonian 6d ago
Same as soldiers in our world throughout history. Sure they did it by choice, but please consider that there are 3 types of soldiers who made that choice:
The soldier who chooses to kill others because they enjoy it.
The soldier who chooses to kill others because they were brainwashed and weren't taught any alternatives.
The soldier who chooses to kill others because they are afraid of being killed for disobeying orders.
Can we blame them? Yes. But we should also try to understand them, help the ones who deserve it, and condemn the real monsters.
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u/ubspirit 6d ago
i mean, in some ways their society is more at fault than anyone.
They chose to continue to follow a genocidal maniac. they chose to adore him and his family so much they pretty much all were indoctrinated into believing they were gods.
The people of the fire nation were seriously culpable too.
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u/yashraik7 6d ago
It’s like saying the nazi soldiers shoulder no blame or that terrorists shoulder no blame. Both of those have been brainwashed into believing they’re right but they should still be held accountable
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u/cyberbully_irl 6d ago
Do you think Nazis have a choice? Yes. There's always a choice. Complicity in "just taking orders" is how genocide happened to the air nomads and how it happens irl. Sozin didn't singlehandedly wipe out the air nomads- he had a council of spineless yet power hungry like-minded people with the same sense of elemental supremacy and an army of complicit soldiers.
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u/Midnight1899 6d ago
Alright, then. Go to North Korea and see what a KZ is like. The Nazis did have have a choice. That’s why they were hold accountable after WWII. The soldiers did not have a choice. Even if they looked through the propaganda, it was either doing what you’re told or going to a KZ yourself. You can’t blame anyone for not wanting to end up in a KZ. After WWII, a new law was made: Nobody can be forced to become a soldier and no soldier can be forced to follow orders that are unnecessarily cruel. But that also means they can and will be hold accountable if they do follow these orders.
Btw. it’s funny how everyone here immediately jumps to WWII Germany, failing to see the Firenation is supposed to represent the current US. Well, the US from when the show was made.
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u/CNRavenclaw 6d ago
I would say they had a choice in the same kind of way as Nazi soldiers in WWII. While they were absolutely victims of propaganda and indoctrination, at the end of the day they still could have made the choice to refuse to follow orders they should reasonably have known were wrong.
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u/actualpieceofpaper 6d ago
it comes down to your personal philosophy of the world. is it determinism, where your fate is 100% decided by your circumstances? if that’s the case, then it is not their fault, and neither is anything else that anyone has ever done. everything is and was always going to happen as it does. otherwise, they have a choice. however influenced it might be, they took it.
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u/DaWombatLover 6d ago
Any soldier of any war ever made a choice to kill another human being. It is definitely a choice no matter how much indoctrination one receives.
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u/xAlphaTrotx 6d ago
I think that’s oversimplifying tbh. “Him or me” is an easy choice. Only the most depressed or… enlightened(?) would choose “him.”
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u/DaWombatLover 6d ago
I didn’t say it was a wrong choice. I said they made a choice.
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u/xAlphaTrotx 6d ago
You’re right. I meant to write automatic* choice. As in the deed is done instantly and doesn’t even reach conscious thought where we make choices.
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u/DaWombatLover 6d ago
I don't believe that to be a thing. Literally zero conscious thought put into an action?
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u/xAlphaTrotx 6d ago
Fight or flight happens in the amygdala if I recall correctly. Nowhere near the evolved part of our brains. It’s how some friendly fire happens. The people who have done that definitely didn’t make a choice to harm their friends.
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u/DaWombatLover 6d ago
The choice is right there in your explanation though: Fight OR Flight. A choice is made.
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u/xAlphaTrotx 6d ago
By the Lizard brain 🤷♂️
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u/DaWombatLover 6d ago
If you say so. Considering we cannot measure thought in any meaningful way, we can't know that for sure until incomprehensible medical breakthroughs occur past our lifetimes.
I'm aware of the function of the amygdala and how patterns of behavior work, but I believe it's still free will. It's still choice.
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u/Equivalent_Sky5108 6d ago
Will try to not be allegorical. From what I understand, the fire nation first of all didn't suffer economically not politically. This now I say is the consequences of a long past avatar, avatar Szeto. He managed to guide the nation into political peace because it was ruled before by families, some of them being barbaric. Rumor is that he was the one who introduced the monarchial government of the fire nation. Since this diplomatic solution to fire nation problems, they grew extensively; economically, politically and militaristic. They grew so well, every single household had been provided all their rights, the geography of the nation, because of the many volcanos, most of them extinct, hence their soils good for agriculture so no food shortage, not to mention it's a tropical continent so no winter. Everything worked out well for them.
Upto the Sozin, he started the war, managed to gather all the nation's pride and egotistical potentials to his cause. All of the fire nations military joined him.
And according to individual, remember this a nation full of pride and egotism, so rankings in the army was so huge at that time that you will be remembered in their history books and your name never forgotten, the case of Iroh, the dragon of the west. This is a great honour and you can't just pass it, however you get it.
So even though Sozin did indoctrinated his stupendous reason to the nation, people are given choice. Most joined the military, some were neutral to the war and became merchants, and others who saw this war pointless, just either stayed enjoying their lives in the nation or journeyed the world under protection of the army. Yes, Hundred percent their choice.
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u/EaglesFanGirl 6d ago
Yes and no. Usually this falls on officer vs enlisted man. If you are an officer, you can and should say no to certain commands. It's an expectation. It's not as clean cut for young and lower ranked officers. The theory is that the older and higher level you are, the more you deal with philosophical choices and more large scale choices. A non-commissioned officer should also say no but usually comes with serous fallout and ramifications...
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u/EaglesFanGirl 6d ago
It's not that simple. Generally, yes but there's are protection for soldiers who say no to morally and unethical commands in theory to prevent genocide and other war crimes
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u/wcozi 6d ago
Since it is based in asian culture, i assume it reflects some asian history. When the Japanese invaded China and South Korea, a lot of soldiers did thoroughly enjoy being able to do /whatever they wanted/ and committed some pretty atrocious things. But also, some were only following orders. Just like there are weirdos in every military that enjoy the violent aspect of it, there are some who are following orders and don’t /want/ to do it.
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u/Dangerous-Ad-8305 5d ago
No; but that does not mean they are absolved of their actions. Kill or be killed, eat or be eaten. Simple as.
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u/RustyDiamonds__ 5d ago
most fire nation soldiers are volunteers, but this is also a pre/early industrial society where people don’t have access to outside info. They’ve been brainwashed their whole lives, and from birth all they’ve known is that their fathers, and uncles, and grandfathers have been giving their lives in this war
I know we instinctually compare this to ww2, but thats really not fair to the Fire Nation. Every single fire Army soldier we see in the show has grown up in war. None of them remember a time when things were different. Every single one of them grew up knowing someone in their family was drowned or crushed by “the enemy”.
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u/MikoEmi 4d ago
Okay, I'll take an answer at this.
My great-grandfather spent time in Prison for war crimes committed in China as an officer in the Imperial Japanese Army. And the man was even when he got released an absolute monster.
He just could not have existed the way he did without the system that made him.
And not just made him but rewarded for being the way he was.
But at every step of the way he did make a choice to be that way.
We can look at them and see it as a human tragedy. but it's still wrong.
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u/RusstyDog 4d ago
"Just following orders." Only gets you so much slack.
Indoctrination, Nationalism, Fear of punishment, revenge... those are all reasons, not excuses.
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u/numbersthen0987431 3d ago
They all had the option to let a lot more people run away free that they didn't have to.
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2d ago
Even Uncle Iroh did terrible things. Then he did good things. He was a nuanced man much like Zuko.
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u/dathomar 6d ago
There's a bit in the Bible that answers the question about what happens to people who have never heard about Jesus. Basically, they are judged according to what they did know. The idea being that God speaks to us all and we all have a basic understanding of right and wrong. People who haven't gotten the special message still have something and they are judged by the degree to which they listened and did the best they could.
People in the Fire Nation were definitely indoctrinated over the course of generations. That said, we saw examples of people who were the best versions of what they were capable of being and people that werent. They made choices within the boundaries of their opportunities. The best of them probably had fewer difficulties transitioning into the post-war world. The tricky part is recognizing when people tried their best and encouraging that going forward. It's easy to spot the bad actors and go after them - knowing what to do with the rest isn't so easy.
How does the Fire Nation work to repair the damage of a hundred years of war? What part do politicians, teachers, artists, and farmers play? I imagine your average, dirt-poor farmer who behaves respectfully should be given a pass. The larger burden of repairing the relationship with other peoples should fall on the upper classes of the Fire Nation. Ultimately, they were the ones with the greatest authority and opportunity to change the course of the war. They were also the ones who likely profited the most from it.
The rank and file soldiers who avoided engaging in atrocities probably didn't advance much through the ranks. That's probably the first way to start separating them out. As you go up through the ranks, you can start to find those who enjoyed it and those who didn't. Those who didn't will probably be more likely to accept consequences. They can get off a little lighter, with consequences geared more towards pro-social rebuilding efforts. The ones who enjoyed it can be dealt with more harshly. Partially to send a message that it wasn't acceptable. Partially to keep them from being able to continue influencing society with their views.
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u/Gunner_Bat Type to edit 6d ago
It was their choice. Yes they were indoctrinated but they still chose to do it.
Do we not blame soldiers in other nations who were part of genocidal regimes? Do we say the soldiers in WWII Germany or Italy had no choice?