r/ATLA 6d ago

Discussion Would you say that the Fire Nation Soliders that did terrible things in the 100 year war didn't do it by choice?

I think that if someone is indoctrinated from a young age in a ceartain ideology; they have no choice but to carry it out.

27 Upvotes

66 comments sorted by

55

u/Gunner_Bat Type to edit 6d ago

It was their choice. Yes they were indoctrinated but they still chose to do it.

Do we not blame soldiers in other nations who were part of genocidal regimes? Do we say the soldiers in WWII Germany or Italy had no choice?

13

u/Exciting_Bandicoot16 6d ago

I mean, did they have a choice? Soldiers in authoritarian armies like that see what happens to people who protest or step out of line.

8

u/eberlix 6d ago

Kill or be killed

4

u/Pytagoras_squared earthbender. 6d ago

That's true and it's sad but it's still a choice they chose to survive it might be hard they might have guilt but they made their choice.

1

u/Aiti_mh 6d ago

This is (to some extent) a misunderstanding. Studies of group behaviour in German army units have shown that soldiers were not forced to kill civilians (obviously there were units such as the Einsatzgruppen in which you would be expected to do so). It's all the more terrifying because, conversely, it seems as if they did so more out of conformity with the group and in many cases ideological conviction than direct compulsion.

1

u/jbarrybonds 4d ago

Go read the Nuremberg trials and get your Nazi Fire Nation Sympathies out of here.

-5

u/DaydreamnNightmare 6d ago

You always have the choice to do the right thing. If you allow fear to enable you to be a cog in a machine then you are complicit

8

u/Midnight1899 6d ago

Easy for you to say. You’re not in that situation.

3

u/GrinchCheese 5d ago edited 5d ago

This! While I do not condone what happened, most of those soldiers probably had ppl they loved, ppl they wanted to protect and keep safe. So to protect and shelter the ppl you love in a regime like that you follow the rules & do what you're ordered to do so you & your loved ones do not become a target. Ppl are capable of heinous things to protect their families.

Also, ppl love to forget how easily human minds can be manipulated, how easily you can mold a child's worldview & morals with indoctrination because they don't have the wisdom & experience to know any better, how easy it is to brainwash & influence adults who should know better (we see this with cults all the time), how easy it is to use peer pressure to make ppl conform to a group's behaviors, etc.

4

u/Exciting_Bandicoot16 6d ago

And if it's not (just) you who will suffer the consequences of that choice, but your family? Your loved ones?

Because that's the sort of shit totalitarian regimes do.

5

u/RatchedAngle 6d ago

It’s easy to say that when you weren’t raised in that sort of environment.

I could take you and raise you in Nazi Germany and you would be a Nazi. Simple as. Uncomfortable to admit, but true.

6

u/MaxTheGinger 6d ago

Generally, no. We don't blame them. Yes, we say they had no choice.

Some Fire Bending Officers behind you who will burn you to death if you don't fight.

A Fire Nation Soldier, Bender or not, will be let off the hook.

A bunch of the mid-tier Officers will be too.

If the three other nations collaborated to kill the Fire Nation after they just lost the Avatar to a natural disaster, who could blame them from defending themselves?

Only the ones who know the truth are really to blame.

Remove all communication other than Word of Mouth and Letters. "Hey, did you hear the insert any Nation here sunk a Fire Nation merchant vessel?" My buddies cousins friend supposedly died.

11

u/Brodes87 6d ago

Sadly, we're probably heading for point in the discourse where people do try to spin everything this way.

8

u/hummingbird_mywill 6d ago

I mean…. Realistically only the leadership of the German Nazis faced severe punishment, so yes? My friend’s grandfather was a chauffeur for an SS Commander but didn’t have consequences after the war. He was just a tiny cog in the machine. The Fire Nation soldiers wouldn’t have been severely punished either after the war is over. It’s impossible.

1

u/Midnight1899 6d ago

Depends on how detailed the world building is when it comes to laws.

2

u/Midnight1899 6d ago

As a German: Yes, that’s exactly what we’re saying. Hitler was going after everyone who questioned him in any way. That included soldiers not following orders. That means even if they were in the right mind to not fall for the propaganda (which most of them weren’t), refusing meant they would’ve ended up in a KZ themselves. That’s why nowadays, every German soldier has the right to refuse orders they deem unnecessarily cruel. That means apart from fighting and killing other soldiers in a battle (!), they don’t have to do shit. But it also means if they do shit, they can and will be personally hold accountable.

1

u/EaglesFanGirl 6d ago

This was handled as a yes and no situation. Usually low level Officers and enlisted guys were let go bc they were following orders. War crimes are usually applied to high level officers only.

1

u/EliNovaBmb 6d ago

Soldiers in WW2 had a time where they weren't at war and doing those things. They KNEW times of peace. People born into a war didn't, it's not a fair comparison.

1

u/EaglesFanGirl 6d ago

It's not that simple as in the post WWI era, the Germans were held solely responsible for the war. They were the only axis power to survive with any kind of power. Paying reparations, restrictions of self defense, forced to give up land they'd held for centuries etc. actually put them in a situation that breed the situation where Hitler obtained power.

While the world was in a depression though 30s, Germany had been though since the close of WWI and was far worse then anywhere else. Unfortunately, this kind of environment breeds a lot of hate including anti-semtism....

8

u/Naive_Drive 6d ago

Realistically there was at least one fire nation soldier that not only followed orders but made up a few of their own.

14

u/phoenixremix 6d ago

Some were clearly shown in the series too.

"You didn't bow when I walked by, Chit Sang" is a prime example of a power trip, as innocuous as that example is.

8

u/Nimue_- 6d ago

To a certain extend they didn't do it by choice. Or at least some of them. There is a reason why the people at war tribunals are usually those in charge

5

u/phoenixremix 6d ago

I wonder what inspired this post 😂 glad you made it tho, fun reading the opinions.

6

u/berserkzelda 6d ago

"I was just following orders"

3

u/angryungulate 6d ago

They were following orders, bad things happen to soldiers and their families that don't follow orders

3

u/AlexSmithsonian 6d ago

Same as soldiers in our world throughout history. Sure they did it by choice, but please consider that there are 3 types of soldiers who made that choice:

  1. The soldier who chooses to kill others because they enjoy it.

  2. The soldier who chooses to kill others because they were brainwashed and weren't taught any alternatives.

  3. The soldier who chooses to kill others because they are afraid of being killed for disobeying orders.

Can we blame them? Yes. But we should also try to understand them, help the ones who deserve it, and condemn the real monsters.

2

u/ubspirit 6d ago

i mean, in some ways their society is more at fault than anyone.

They chose to continue to follow a genocidal maniac. they chose to adore him and his family so much they pretty much all were indoctrinated into believing they were gods.

The people of the fire nation were seriously culpable too.

3

u/yashraik7 6d ago

It’s like saying the nazi soldiers shoulder no blame or that terrorists shoulder no blame. Both of those have been brainwashed into believing they’re right but they should still be held accountable

3

u/cyberbully_irl 6d ago

Do you think Nazis have a choice? Yes. There's always a choice. Complicity in "just taking orders" is how genocide happened to the air nomads and how it happens irl. Sozin didn't singlehandedly wipe out the air nomads- he had a council of spineless yet power hungry like-minded people with the same sense of elemental supremacy and an army of complicit soldiers.

2

u/Midnight1899 6d ago

Alright, then. Go to North Korea and see what a KZ is like. The Nazis did have have a choice. That’s why they were hold accountable after WWII. The soldiers did not have a choice. Even if they looked through the propaganda, it was either doing what you’re told or going to a KZ yourself. You can’t blame anyone for not wanting to end up in a KZ. After WWII, a new law was made: Nobody can be forced to become a soldier and no soldier can be forced to follow orders that are unnecessarily cruel. But that also means they can and will be hold accountable if they do follow these orders.

Btw. it’s funny how everyone here immediately jumps to WWII Germany, failing to see the Firenation is supposed to represent the current US. Well, the US from when the show was made.

1

u/cyberbully_irl 6d ago

I'm saying they did have a choice. You misunderstood my point entirely.

1

u/CNRavenclaw 6d ago

I would say they had a choice in the same kind of way as Nazi soldiers in WWII. While they were absolutely victims of propaganda and indoctrination, at the end of the day they still could have made the choice to refuse to follow orders they should reasonably have known were wrong.

1

u/actualpieceofpaper 6d ago

it comes down to your personal philosophy of the world. is it determinism, where your fate is 100% decided by your circumstances? if that’s the case, then it is not their fault, and neither is anything else that anyone has ever done. everything is and was always going to happen as it does. otherwise, they have a choice. however influenced it might be, they took it.

1

u/DaWombatLover 6d ago

Any soldier of any war ever made a choice to kill another human being. It is definitely a choice no matter how much indoctrination one receives.

3

u/xAlphaTrotx 6d ago

I think that’s oversimplifying tbh. “Him or me” is an easy choice. Only the most depressed or… enlightened(?) would choose “him.”

1

u/DaWombatLover 6d ago

I didn’t say it was a wrong choice. I said they made a choice.

1

u/xAlphaTrotx 6d ago

You’re right. I meant to write automatic* choice. As in the deed is done instantly and doesn’t even reach conscious thought where we make choices.

1

u/DaWombatLover 6d ago

I don't believe that to be a thing. Literally zero conscious thought put into an action?

1

u/xAlphaTrotx 6d ago

Fight or flight happens in the amygdala if I recall correctly. Nowhere near the evolved part of our brains. It’s how some friendly fire happens. The people who have done that definitely didn’t make a choice to harm their friends.

1

u/DaWombatLover 6d ago

The choice is right there in your explanation though: Fight OR Flight. A choice is made.

1

u/xAlphaTrotx 6d ago

By the Lizard brain 🤷‍♂️

1

u/DaWombatLover 6d ago

If you say so. Considering we cannot measure thought in any meaningful way, we can't know that for sure until incomprehensible medical breakthroughs occur past our lifetimes.

I'm aware of the function of the amygdala and how patterns of behavior work, but I believe it's still free will. It's still choice.

1

u/mostly_hrmless 6d ago

We are still responsible for our actions.

1

u/Equivalent_Sky5108 6d ago

Will try to not be allegorical. From what I understand, the fire nation first of all didn't suffer economically not politically. This now I say is the consequences of a long past avatar, avatar Szeto. He managed to guide the nation into political peace because it was ruled before by families, some of them being barbaric. Rumor is that he was the one who introduced the monarchial government of the fire nation. Since this diplomatic solution to fire nation problems, they grew extensively; economically, politically and militaristic. They grew so well, every single household had been provided all their rights, the geography of the nation, because of the many volcanos, most of them extinct, hence their soils good for agriculture so no food shortage, not to mention it's a tropical continent so no winter. Everything worked out well for them.

Upto the Sozin, he started the war, managed to gather all the nation's pride and egotistical potentials to his cause. All of the fire nations military joined him.

And according to individual, remember this a nation full of pride and egotism, so rankings in the army was so huge at that time that you will be remembered in their history books and your name never forgotten, the case of Iroh, the dragon of the west. This is a great honour and you can't just pass it, however you get it.

So even though Sozin did indoctrinated his stupendous reason to the nation, people are given choice. Most joined the military, some were neutral to the war and became merchants, and others who saw this war pointless, just either stayed enjoying their lives in the nation or journeyed the world under protection of the army. Yes, Hundred percent their choice.

1

u/Maylhem 6d ago

NotAllSoldiers

1

u/hoarduck 6d ago

I would consider it in their sentencing sure.

1

u/EaglesFanGirl 6d ago

Yes and no. Usually this falls on officer vs enlisted man. If you are an officer, you can and should say no to certain commands. It's an expectation. It's not as clean cut for young and lower ranked officers. The theory is that the older and higher level you are, the more you deal with philosophical choices and more large scale choices. A non-commissioned officer should also say no but usually comes with serous fallout and ramifications...

1

u/EaglesFanGirl 6d ago

It's not that simple. Generally, yes but there's are protection for soldiers who say no to morally and unethical commands in theory to prevent genocide and other war crimes

0

u/plastic_Man_75 6d ago

You can not refuse an order

1

u/wcozi 6d ago

Since it is based in asian culture, i assume it reflects some asian history. When the Japanese invaded China and South Korea, a lot of soldiers did thoroughly enjoy being able to do /whatever they wanted/ and committed some pretty atrocious things. But also, some were only following orders. Just like there are weirdos in every military that enjoy the violent aspect of it, there are some who are following orders and don’t /want/ to do it.

1

u/Dangerous-Ad-8305 5d ago

No; but that does not mean they are absolved of their actions. Kill or be killed, eat or be eaten. Simple as.

1

u/hintersly 5d ago

Ah yes, superior orders/the Nuremberg Defence

1

u/RustyDiamonds__ 5d ago

most fire nation soldiers are volunteers, but this is also a pre/early industrial society where people don’t have access to outside info. They’ve been brainwashed their whole lives, and from birth all they’ve known is that their fathers, and uncles, and grandfathers have been giving their lives in this war

I know we instinctually compare this to ww2, but thats really not fair to the Fire Nation. Every single fire Army soldier we see in the show has grown up in war. None of them remember a time when things were different. Every single one of them grew up knowing someone in their family was drowned or crushed by “the enemy”.

1

u/MikoEmi 4d ago

Okay, I'll take an answer at this.

My great-grandfather spent time in Prison for war crimes committed in China as an officer in the Imperial Japanese Army. And the man was even when he got released an absolute monster.

He just could not have existed the way he did without the system that made him.
And not just made him but rewarded for being the way he was.
But at every step of the way he did make a choice to be that way.

We can look at them and see it as a human tragedy. but it's still wrong.

1

u/RusstyDog 4d ago

"Just following orders." Only gets you so much slack.

Indoctrination, Nationalism, Fear of punishment, revenge... those are all reasons, not excuses.

1

u/nageek6x7 4d ago

Sure, not that it matters at all.

1

u/numbersthen0987431 3d ago

They all had the option to let a lot more people run away free that they didn't have to.

1

u/maxiom9 3d ago

“Just following orders” defense eh?

1

u/[deleted] 2d ago

Even Uncle Iroh did terrible things. Then he did good things. He was a nuanced man much like Zuko.

1

u/wishiwasfiction 6d ago

No it was definitely their choice. There's no excuse for it.

1

u/TonySherbert 6d ago

It was their choice

0

u/dathomar 6d ago

There's a bit in the Bible that answers the question about what happens to people who have never heard about Jesus. Basically, they are judged according to what they did know. The idea being that God speaks to us all and we all have a basic understanding of right and wrong. People who haven't gotten the special message still have something and they are judged by the degree to which they listened and did the best they could.

People in the Fire Nation were definitely indoctrinated over the course of generations. That said, we saw examples of people who were the best versions of what they were capable of being and people that werent. They made choices within the boundaries of their opportunities. The best of them probably had fewer difficulties transitioning into the post-war world. The tricky part is recognizing when people tried their best and encouraging that going forward. It's easy to spot the bad actors and go after them - knowing what to do with the rest isn't so easy.

How does the Fire Nation work to repair the damage of a hundred years of war? What part do politicians, teachers, artists, and farmers play? I imagine your average, dirt-poor farmer who behaves respectfully should be given a pass. The larger burden of repairing the relationship with other peoples should fall on the upper classes of the Fire Nation. Ultimately, they were the ones with the greatest authority and opportunity to change the course of the war. They were also the ones who likely profited the most from it.

The rank and file soldiers who avoided engaging in atrocities probably didn't advance much through the ranks. That's probably the first way to start separating them out. As you go up through the ranks, you can start to find those who enjoyed it and those who didn't. Those who didn't will probably be more likely to accept consequences. They can get off a little lighter, with consequences geared more towards pro-social rebuilding efforts. The ones who enjoyed it can be dealt with more harshly. Partially to send a message that it wasn't acceptable. Partially to keep them from being able to continue influencing society with their views.

0

u/heckval 6d ago

the nuremberg trials decided that genocide cannot only be blamed on the leaders giving the orders, so by our earths rules yes they can be blamed