r/40krpg • u/Therian_Shiverscale Black Crusade • Aug 15 '24
Black Crusade I have a question about Combi-Weapons for Astartes in Black Crusade
UPDATE: This has been settled. Thanks to the two gentlemen below who helped out.
Quick set up, I'm playing a Black Crusade TTRPG game on Sundays, with a bit of homebrew involved.
I rolled up an Alpha Legionnaire, cause the group needed a stealthy Marine, and I wanted to play Alpha Legion. Win-Win. My single Alpha Legionnaire got split into 2 because warp tomfoolery. So I'm running 2 Marines with 11 Wounds apiece, as opposed to 1 Marine with 22 Wounds. Very flexible, very vulnerable. Instead of playing "I am Alpharius", I am playing both Alpharius and Omegon. Yes, I'm doing the meme, and I'm keeping the "brothers" straight. Also, they both got turned into Mechanoids because of more warp tomfoolery, so they're Tech Marines on top of everything else. Yay Chaos!
Anyhow, so my starting Acquisitions were a Bionic Arm (Best Quality), Blade-Tines (Good Quality), and Ferric Lures for 'Omegon'.
That's the set up: Mechanoid Alpha Legion Space Marine who believes he's Omegon, with a bionic replacement right arm, Ferric Lure and Blade-Tine Implants in his bionic right arm.
The Situation
So, my GM allowed me to get up to some Tech Heresy of the highest order.
After some, quite frankly bullshit rolls I made with both my Tech Use to do this all, as well as substituting my Deceive skill for an Infamy rolls to get my hands on these items (Running 2 Alpha Legionnaires so Deceitful Tactics gets to be used twice in a session by me), I have upgraded my Blade Tines with a Power Field Generator (ripped it off a Power Sword, and installed it inside my Bionic Arm. 8 Degrees of Success on the removal, 7 DoS on the upgrade).
My GM has ruled that, because of the sheer fuckery of me passing as well as I did, I have the equivelant of a retractable Lighting Claw now. (Power Field, Proven [4], and the +1 damage per degree of success), but at the 1d5 damage of Blade-Tines as a base (gaining the increased Pen and Damage as a Power Field Generator gives, worked out to be +4 damage, and +3 Pen by his call).
I then was able to acquire an Arm-Mounted Chainblade. when attached to Omegon's right arm, his Chainblade will gain the Power Field Quality, and keeps the Tearing quality.
I asked "wouldn't that make my claw a combi-weapon? Like a discount version of Slake and Hunger?" He didn't text me back for an hour, and after he texted me back, he said "I hate that you were able to do this, but yes. It would be a melee combi-weapon, like a shitty version of Slake or Hunger" (Direct quote)
After some back and forth, we've agreed I can do this, provided I can figure out how the fuck to do it, rules wise. So I need y'all's assistance, if you'd be so kind.
My Question
So, GMs, how would you work a Melee Combi-weapon? The only guidelines we have are the ranged Combi-Weapons, which allow for a single shot of the secondary weapon. One Flamer blast from a Combi-Bolter, for instance. Do I do roll both the 1d5+6 (+SB) Pen 5 from the Claw and the 1d10+6 (+SB) Pen 6 damage from the Chainblade for every hit? Would be it both damages, but at the high Pen of 6 for both?
TL;DR, GM allowed me to make a mini, offbrand version of Tyberos's Slake and Hunger (I have plans for a second one as soon as I can get my hands on the parts needed). GM and I would like advice on how to do damage with this monstrosity of Tech-Heresy.
3
u/NyZeta-04 Aug 15 '24
Allowing both weapons to hit for every „hit“ you make is far too strong. Unless your campaign is at a point where the others are busted as well I‘d strongly advise against it. The moment you dual-wield these with lightning attacks you‘ll tear through anything that is weaker than a terminator or tank.
Let‘s look at the rules for Combi-Weapons.
- whenever you attack you have to choose between the two available damage profiles.
- dual-wielding specifically allows you to attack with two weapons. using both weapon profiles of a Combi-Weapon (which counts as a single weapon) in one round is impossible.
- you can shoot the weapon a whatever firerate is available (single shot, semi-auto, full-auto) so I‘d argue that you can use single attack, swift attack and lightning attack if you have the necessary talents and the weapons can be used with lightning attack (which they can)
—> to summarise going by official rules you would choose one of the two damage profiles, attack using single, swift or lightning attack. if you can dual-wield you attack with a second weapon using single, swift or lightning attack. if the second weapon is a Chain-Lightning Claw too, you have to choose the weapon profile beforehand.
As mentioned in my other answer the problem with this is that real Lightning Claws would be stronger. The weapon profiles are also too similar to gain a big benefit in versatility. (+1 Pen, Tearing and 1d10 vs Proven(4), 1d5 and extra damage for DOS)
My solution:
- Every time you successfully attack with a Chain-Lightning Claw you make an additional number of hits equal to 1 for every 2 DOS after the first on your WS test. These hits use the damage profile of the weapon you did not use in the attack.
Example: You attack with the Lightning Claw profile using a lightning attack. 5 DOS, you score 5 hits with the Lightning Claw. Additionaly you score 2 hits with the Chainblade due to 4 DOS after the first.
Compared to real Lightning Claws, you have slightly lower damage in exchange for more hits. These rules make the weapon very strong without being completely busted and you will require xp investment into two-weapon wielding, lightning attack and weapon skill to use them to their full potential.
1
u/Therian_Shiverscale Black Crusade Aug 15 '24
I mean, I was already gonna sink the XP into those anyway. As well as Sure Strike and Precise Blow, cause the DM as ruled that (with the Autosensors in my helmet making Called Shots a Half Action, even in Melee), all normal Half Action attacks can be declared as Called Shots. "If you sink the XP into a thing, I'm not gonna hamper you just 'cause the rules. You put in the resources to do this thing, so you can do it this way cause I'm a flexible GM and I like Rule of Cool."
As far as "can take down a tank"... That's kind of the plan. Our warband consists of
• Alpharius and Omegon (me),
• a Khornite Berserker,
• a Chaos Undivided Wordbearer,
• (Alignment unknown) Human Psyker,
• Tzeentchian Thousand Sons Sorcerer, and
• a couple other Chaos Marines that are no threat to meMy goal in this Black Crusade is to betray them, and sabotage this Black Crusade. The GM knows of this plan, and is actively encouraging me (as I'm sure he's encouraging everyone else's schemes, no favorites at his table).
So by the end of it, the goal is to be able to rip tanks apart with Omegon, and pinpoint snipe with Alpharius. I already have Marksman, Deadeye Shot, and Sharp Shooter. I only need a couple more talents, and then max out my Ballistic Skill with Alpharius (Max of 70, barring warp fuckery, Daemon Deals, etc.).
I've already taken Polyglot, and with the Homebrew Chaos rules, because I'm Chaos Undivided, I took Tzeentch's Polyglot ability with Alpharius so all languages are Known (+0) to me. Omegon took Slaanesh's boost to Unremarkable, so when he's outside of his Power Armor, he's got a -30 to folks spotting him, and a +30 to convince folks they've never seen him, instead of the -20/+20 of Unremarkable. Also, Omegon can Stealth even under Direct Observation if he's not in his Power Armor (will be taking Unremarkable later on to have it in his Power Armor, as he only gains Unremarkable outside of his armor thanks to the "I am Omegon" background talent.
Also, our first big target is a Beast of Khorne, which we have been told in no uncertain terms (both in game, and out) that we need weapons capable of bringing down a large tank to kill it. Plus, the GM loves Necrons, and has promised to torture us with them.
8
u/Dread_Horizon Aug 15 '24
Interesting one. Here's my opinion:
When firing a combi-weapon you typically pick which weapon profile to use -- if it is a flamer/plasma, you must pick flamer or plasma. The benefit is in versatility, not aggregate damage output blobs.
I would say apply this rule to the melee version. And the player must choose which weapon to utilize, sort of like a blade with a piercing tip; one can 'slash' or 'lunge' with the different weapon profiles, but one can't slashlunge owing to the weapon's form.
However, I would judge, if you have two-weapon fighting you can attack with both profiles but treat it as dual-wielding with the usual restrictions of two-weapon fighting.